SGOTM 9 - Hagar

[Abegweit]

We're Vikings - seafaring and militaristic

How bout late switch to commie?

Oh yeah. Vikings. Hagar an all that. We're here because there's because there's because we're here. Not only do science farms work through anarchy, they also work through

I have no experience with commie. As I understand, it conflicts with science farms. Not sure about how affects the issue though.

There appears to be at least one effect. I just ran past the smiley limit [mad]

 

[Abegweit]

Smiley spam alert.

 

[Andronicus]

Sorry guys but I think I've wasted your time thinking bout this strat

My trial game stalled after letting India take a city in modern ages
Result 15 turns later the 18 pop city with factory, Hoover and other improvements has been starved down to size 3 and 5 other perfectly good cites have been razed. Ghandi shows no inclination to capture a city - I guess its too expensive and he doesnt want the flip risk. He still has about 5 cities to go before reaching GL city, but on current form may just raze that.
(pic follows)
How long will it take for him to build back up again in size and infrastructure in order to commence building SS?
How many expensive modern age weapons will he build once he has (if he keeps) GL before he feels secure enough to build SS?
I think this is going to take MANY turns negating any benefit from elevating him up in the first place (assuming that is successful).

This leads me to believe we should consider ensuring Ghandi has a strong core throughout game (or at least by time reach modern ages). This is a different game to what we have been discussing - what do others think?

 

[Andronicus]

for me
Work calls
Perhaps later

 

[markh]

"Runaway-Civ" as I stated in my first post. We should not forget that he has deity level unit support, so IMO he might research faster than normal Monarch. If we help him getting a continent his research rate would not be too bad. Maybe ?

Pity about the GL-elevator. Would have been fun to try.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

A small detail in response to your test game, Andronicus.

The AI will never raze a wonder holding city... See what I mean? This is Monarch, we can build almost every wonder we want to, we just have to do it in the right cities (that Ghandi will take later)... Otherways, I really see no way to make it work. And finally the worst thing that can happen is to be forced to wait the AI to launch in OCC... This is probably the idea of Gyathaar for this game...

 

[Andronicus]

A small detail in response to your test game, Andronicus.

The AI will never raze a wonder holding city... See what I mean? This is Monarch, we can build almost every wonder we want to, we just have to do it in the right cities (that Ghandi will take later)... Otherways, I really see no way to make it work. And finally the worst thing that can happen is to be forced to wait the AI to launch in OCC... This is probably the idea of Gyathaar for this game...

Your right - eventually Ghandi did take GL city and rode elevator to all techs.
Now problem is getting him Uranium and Aluminium. Played another 20-30 turns since - he still hasnt got these.

 

[Abegweit]

Your test game is very illuminating, Andronicus. Thank you very very much for trying it out. We now know that simply letting him take over a ton of good cites is not the solution and it's really good to have learnt this before we start. When thinking about it, I understand the AI's approach. Our culture will be huge and the flip risk enormous. Of course it starves cities down if it keeps them at all.

I still think the elevator can help though. Here is an alternate - less extreme - approach.

We should have taken over the world by the early IA so this is the time to let Gandhi get strong. We rail over some good productive land for him to settle and then clear the cities out. This probably is our core since it needs to be close to his capital. If so, we need to plan to evacuate the whole thing except for the GL city. In order to grow fast, he also needs to get the Pyramids and Hoover's as well. To limit war weariness, we should try to get them all in the same city.

Given that we are going to do this, we will have to go somewhere else. I have never performed a palace jump in Conquests but this might well be the game for it. The important thing for the early game is that we should try to snag both the Library and the Pyramids. In any case, this is going to be an interesting game.

I'm also thinking that we should keep as many AIs alive as possible. We're in uncharted waters here but it seems to me that it should help us get techs to our friend (shouldn't gifting different techs to different civs get them to Gandhi faster?).

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

This is interesting solution too. We may even disband our cities, rebuild others on their places and add a worker. This way, our pal won't have to waste time building settlers. And he'll keep those small uncultured cities, I think.

 

[Abegweit]

I think you're right about that. It's certainly worth checking the idea out.

I suppose the proper Palace Jump is to some AI core on another continent.

 

[Abegweit]

Maybe this goes without being said but I did want to add that there are a lot of advantages to keeping Gandhi weak for quite a while. It keeps him out of our hair while we conquer the world. It reduces problems with war weariness. It helps us speed up our REX.

We should not let him out until we can nicely separate his empire and ours, minimising the wasted warring on both sides.

 

[Andronicus]

Well I've finally abandonned my trial game in the 1990s.
Ghandi has had capability of building Apollo fo over 40 years and has had every resource for at least 15 (exc oil - I didnt give him oil). On checking out all his cities he is building TOWs in every one. He is not getting any stronger because he just suicides them against MI fortified on mountain with TOWs!
I guess I failed as a military teacher .

So what lessons do we draw from this?

I think the AI will push military when it is so weak. Being gifted into modern ages with few ancient units and thousands of years war with much stronger civ only encourages this. Perhaps if I had withdrawn troops from entire continent Ghandi may have felt safe enough to invest in SS program? This would have taken a long time - Abegweit's suggestion of abandoning cities but leaving prepared area sounds attractive (hopefully Ghandi thinks so).

re WW and gifting cities to Ghandi
We can avoid losing cities by gifting legitimately to 3rd party then inducing them to declare on Ghandi by offerring tech when Ghandi has units next to their new undefended city. Our rep will remain intact as we wont be breaking any military alliance .
As side effect they may give tech to Ghandi in peace treaty.

 

[Andronicus]

I'm also thinking that we should keep as many AIs alive as possible. We're in uncharted waters here but it seems to me that it should help us get techs to our friend (shouldn't gifting different techs to different civs get them to Gandhi faster?).

I think we need to differentiate between helpful civs who will contribute to research rate and those who just slow research down by increasing the number of civs to learn tech and distract us by constantly attacking (I keep thinking of zulu here). Fewer civs mean less beakers per tech - I dont know precisely how much this helps, but I'm thinking India and maybe 2 or at most 3 other civs would be managable. In order for them to be researching helpfully we will have to keep them up with us in tech and allow them a big enough core to research. This makes them a potential military threat - we dont want to be dogpiled by 6 or 7 strong civs.

 

[Andronicus]

"Runaway-Civ" as I stated in my first post. We should not forget that he has deity level unit support, so IMO he might research faster than normal Monarch. If we help him getting a continent his research rate would not be too bad. Maybe ?

I think this strat has much merit. With complete control of a continent Ghandi would research faster and more likely to build SS when time comes.
The question is when.

 

[juballs2001]

basically, i have skimmed over a few posts.. and here is what i propose... whcih has probably been proposed already.

Build the GL.... and then hopefully, near the modern ages... India will land troops near the city that has it. unfortify and allow india to take that city for 2 turns and gain all the techs.

we then take the city back and all is happy, and we gift india everything else.

only problem is that other civs may beat india in the construction race of the SS. Civilization., so i think it would be smart to leave 2-3 civs alive with one city and gift them the entire way, only to kill them when they approach completion

 

[Abegweit]

we then take the city back and all is happy, and we gift india everything else.

Good idea but it doesn't work. The only way to end war weariness is peace - and peace is forbidden by the rules of the game. Simlarly, we cannot gift anything to India unless we are at peace. Therefore any gift which we make to Gandhi must be through a third party.

Andronicus has demonstrated that the space elevator won't work. Since this is true, it seems to me that we want to ensure that there are just two strong empires in the modern ages - India and us. We will keep researching new techs and gifting them to Gandhi through third parties. In the meantime, he hopefully will prepare to launch.

Let him feel powerful enough and I am comfortable that he will start concentrating on SS parts.

 

[Abegweit]

I think this strat has much merit. With complete control of a continent Ghandi would research faster and more likely to build SS when time comes.
The question is when.

There is no way that a Monarch AI will research at a reasonable pace at all - Deity unit costs or otherwise. We will have to do virtually all the research and figure out how to get it to Gandhi. I had thought that the proper way was to keep around a few weakling AIs to distribute techs amongst. You quite rightly pointed out that this will increase our research costs.

I think that, at Monarch, we can easily deal with the additional expense well into the IA. I could be wrong, but we have 5000 years before we need to choose between the two lines.

The immediate question is what early wonders to build. I feel strongly that we need both the Pyramids and the Great Library. Preferably both should be built in the same city.

 

[Andronicus]

There is no way that a Monarch AI will research at a reasonable pace at all - Deity unit costs or otherwise. We will have to do virtually all the research and figure out how to get it to Gandhi. I had thought that the proper way was to keep around a few weakling AIs to distribute techs amongst. You quite rightly pointed out that this will increase our research costs.

I think that, at Monarch, we can easily deal with the additional expense well into the IA. I could be wrong, but we have 5000 years before we need to choose between the two lines.

Different times may call for different strats

Other AIs likely to be most help through AA and MA until we can get a good infrastructure on ? other continent +/- science cities.
We can probably then look to take out least helpful civs - perhaps with cavs, leaving a few research partners for IA.
In modern age not likely to get any AI help other than poss free tech at beginning of age - so only need 1 civ to ontrade techs to India.
Once all techs in India's hands we may need to get out of their way so they can claim necessary resources, meanwhile removing the remaining AI presense.
(Edit - may require early clearing AI from starting continent as well - wouldnt want AI stronger than India on it)

The immediate question is what early wonders to build. I feel strongly that we need both the Pyramids and the Great Library. Preferably both should be built in the same city.

Probably worth building in non capital as we will be unable to gift capital to 3rd party (to avoid WW when India obtains).
At some stage we will need to consider palace jump so using capital for settler / worker / units makes sense.

 

[IstariAsuka]

Just to summarize what I feel are the most important things we need to do:

1. Get Ghandi off of that rock as fast as possible. Help clear out whatever area is convenient, so that he can immediately start to colonize the whole thing.

This way he'll have a productive empire throughout much of the game. He'll not be a threat, since he is only monarch. Then when the time comes we try to demilitarize as much as possible, possibly even abandoning all cities on the same continent as ghandi, so that he doesn't feel threatened.


2. Keep most other computers alive. If we gift every other AI techs periodically, then they'll be relatively cheap for India to purchase. Because of his large empire from (1), he'll have the money to buy them. This also means that when he hits MA he'll already have a decent army , and won't waste a ton of time.


3. In very early game explore as quickly as possible, even if it costs us some in terms of expansion speed. This is monarch, we shouldn't have a problem getting land. But we do want to meet (and have india meet) all the other AIs as quickly as possible, so they can start buying techs.


I don't feel the GL is really necessary, though giving him the pyramids early enough in the game would be a boon.

 

[Andronicus]

Well the saves out so I've taken a look

The water to the E of start is fresh (lake)

F10 reveals we have Monguls, Carthaginians, Ottomen, Celts and Spanish in addition to India.

Thoughts for settling capital
1 move -> BG 1E - waste of BG, on freshwater, min waste starting moves, can use cow straight off
2 move -> plain NE,NE - also on lake, can use cow on expansion, req 1 more food bonus for 4 turn SF
>2 moves -> ? past cow, ? further along lake to north - not sure this is going to be beneficial, perhaps 2E,thenNE may reveal food bonus for SF - bit of a long shot
These are just my early thoughts - feel free to pick to pieces

Roster - no strong opinions voiced yet so how does this sound ?
1st player 20 turns, thereafter 10 turns (civassist tells you the turn number)

Abegweit - first 20 turns
Istari Asuka
Khan Asparuh
markh
Andronicus
juballs 2001

I have put those still finishing SGOTM8 near the end of the roster to allow a deep breath between SGs - if you guys want a skip first round thats OK - just post to that effect, but hopefully this variant has fired up your enthusiasm. Feel free to swap or change as suits.

My number 1 beef is players going AWOL when due to play or after posting got it - please, if RL intervenes post a request to skip or swap, or if something comes up mid turn and there will be a delay either post to that effect or shorten your turn. Other players are likely to be more tolerant if they know whats happening.

Nuff ranting Time for the fun to begin