SGOTM 9 - Hagar

[Andronicus]

Thinking on all these SFs makes me question how many more settlers we need.

On my dot map I marked 13 sites.
Already we have settlers in place for the 2 chokes as well as settlers on way to 2N of Odense and dye city.
This leaves just 9 sites with settler due next turn that makes 8 more settlers

I suggest order of settling after current 4 in place / on way
1 - Mountain ring W of Molde
2 - Mountain ring S of Odense
3 - 2E of FC
4 - 2S of Odense
5 - 2SE of E choke
6 - 3NE of FC
7 - 2N, 1W of FC
8 - 2E Odense
9 - 3NE, 1N of Odense
After this ? E jungle isle
The first 5 all prevent AI settling S of chokes (unless they send galley by inland sea)
Makes me wonder whether we will still be needing settlers by time iron mountain is mined and SF up in Rey?

 

[Andronicus]

Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb

Rey cant be a 4turner without a granary - if there was doubt before I think this clinches it - simply not worth it

Reconsidering ...

Recommend

1) Cont T as 4 turner for next 4 settlers. By this time WV has built GLib.
2) After GLib switch WV to 5fpt 4 turner allowing to shrink no lower than size 7
3) After 4 settlers allow T to grow building duct then lib (construction hopefully in before then)
4) Once WV down to size 7 switch to lib
5) Once T built duct and lib can use as 5fpt shrinking 4 turner as per WV

Can then use both cities to limit growth and provide settlers as required.

 

[Andronicus]

Summarising

Techs
- push science as hard as poss (can increase science to 80% by adjusting WV as above)
- gift Ottos to MA then research diff tech (not mono as first goal in MA is Invention) trade MA techs adding rep and lib as needed
- ? retain other techs to ourselves

Exploration
- look for any shorter/safer routes to CeltoAmerica
- ? galley suicide route from E jungle island

Worker projects
- chops to speed court in FC
- road to dyes (chop forest NE of FC then road, then road jungle north)
- road to Odense to connect ivory (worker in place to begin next turn)

Settlers - discussed above - refer dot map

Diplomacy
- warfare planned with zerks ? first Monguls, then Carth. CeltoAmer once have astronomy?

 

[Abegweit]

On "Summarising", I agree totally. It's a good summary Goodjob

I do think, though, that you seriously underestimate the number of settlers we need. Aside from your dotmap, we need to fill up the north. And Spain. And possibly some parts of CeltoAmerica. And whatever other places we might find.

Two settler factories could be kept busy for a long long time. Your analysis that Rey cannot be a four-turner leads me to think even more strongly that the second one has to be WV.

I also think that you overestimate the cost of dropping WV below size 7 and underestimate the gain. By dropping it low, three other core cities grow, increasing our unit support, our production and our research. On top of that the food goes to city growth, not settlers, and the shields go to whatever-we-want-them-to-go-to instead of being wasted. This more than compensates for the loss at WV itself.

 

[Abegweit]

WRT techs, I am against hoarding them. I do not fear anything the AI can throw up against us (Zerks + trebs/cannons are devastating against anything in the ME). If the AI is willing to give us decent GPT for tech, I say we should take it. It's also possible that the AI might be able to help with tech research. Wacken's comments in SGOTM8 are illuminating. He certainly was right in that game.

 

[Andronicus]

WRT techs, I am against hoarding them. I do not fear anything the AI can throw up against us (Zerks + trebs/cannons are devastating against anything in the ME). If the AI is willing to give us decent GPT for tech, I say we should take it. It's also possible that the AI might be able to help with tech research. Wacken's comments in SGOTM8 are illuminating. He certainly was right in that game.

In my trial game the AI was very helpful through medieval age as I went through lower tech tree and AI upper - this approach may be useful. I dont recall getting any help beyond this age though other than free techs from scientific AI.
I think beeline for Invention - trade mono if we get it (ie from Otto if this their freebie and we trade for it) to encourage research towards astronomy.
Any techs along this upper branch can be spread around quickly as they are of little military value.

 

[juballs2001]

k guys i will d/l tonight.

so basically this is what we want.

1) maintain settler factory.
2) continue building cities and build infrastructure to lower GPT payments.

anything that is very important please post in a summary of what you would like in my turn. i will play tommorow probably.

thank you

 

[Andronicus]

k guys i will d/l tonight.

so basically this is what we want.

1) maintain settler factory.
2) continue building cities and build infrastructure to lower GPT payments.

anything that is very important please post in a summary of what you would like in my turn. i will play tommorow probably.

thank you

see summary in post 143 above and dot map suggestion of city sites in post 141 above.

Note Abegweit's advice to trade techs (but I would add hold lit and rep from Otto / Carth / Monguls until can trade for Otto's freebie after gifting him to MA) Any trading with other continent should have a gold or gpt benefit to us.

Particular priority in your turnset IMO should be given to workers connecting ivory and dyes, and chopping forests to speed court in FC.

Post 134 shows how lux can be reduced to 20% next turn by reassigning in WV

The dot map described above is actually way back in post 120 - may be worth printing it out to look at as you decide. You are of course free to settle differently if you wish, but it would be courteous to post your reasons before if there are significant variations.

 

[Abegweit]

Re techs: for the moment, the only question what to do when entering the new age. As soon as we do, Osman should be gifted into it as well. Hopefully he will get either Engineering (best from our POV) or Feudalism. In either case, we should go for the other one. If he gets Mono, I think we should go for Engineering but I suppose a case could be made for Feudalism

Last question: do we gift around Republic around? IMO, we should. We will not get any decent tech for GPT deals unless the AI civ is in Republic. We should not give it away (at least not on this continent) until we have sold it to Osman for full value.

Now that I think about it, I am convinced that the foreign civs should get republic right away. They might very well be willing to offer us a nice deal for currency or some other ancient tech.

Note Abegweit's advice to trade techs (but I would add hold lit and rep from Otto / Carth / Monguls until can trade for Otto's freebie after gifting him to MA) Any trading with other continent should have a gold or gpt benefit to us.

Absolutely right. Let me add that the furriners should get Republic for free.

 

[juballs2001]

k guys all done

heres my log.

0(730BC)
- all looks normal, change production in WV and set sci to 80%

IBT: Carthage warrior and settler approach west choke

1(710BC)
- Trond builds settler, i reset worked tiles as i now understand our SF, thanks Andro!
- Aarhus builds worker, switch to another
- currency in 4
- settle alesund on East choke and Bodo on west choke. set both to libraries but can be changed.

IBT: Celts building H.G

2(690BC)
- Not much, settlers moving, workers working.

IBT: Madrid build Oracle.

3(670BC)
- Karasjok built 2E of FC

IBT: Mongols building TOA as are Otto. and America. Carthage building MOM

4(650BC)
- currency in 1
- settlers approach ring placements.
- mongols found city on jung Island

IBT: discover currency, switch to construction in 7. Trond builds settler.

5(630BC)
- Ivory connected in 3.

IBT: absolutely no AI movement.

6(610BC)
- galley will begin suicide trip east in 1 turn.
-Construction in 6

IBT: Stravenger builds worker, switch to library.

7(590BC)
- Forest chop in 4 turns near FC.

IBT: Reykjavik builds library and switch to courthouse. Archer dies of disease on jungle tile near eastern choke??

8(570BC)
- Mongols have scout on hill ring placement S of Odense.
-Construction in 4.

IBT: Carthage building SOZ. Carthage build MOM in Carthage. Barcelona builds Colossus.

9(550BC)
- Tromso built on ring N of Molde
- Mongol scout not moving, our archer from S is moving in.
- Vadso founded 2 S of Odense.


I ENDED MY TURN HERE.

MISC.

- Construction in 3.
- 25 gold per turn going to matinence/units.
- Setler in 1 turn at Trond.
- Some cities have court. or libraries building and can be switched. wasnt sure what to set them to.
- the mongol scout aint moving, we may have to declare war and protect west choke. we already have 3 guys, building 2 or 3 swords wouldnt hurt.

thats all... best of luck to whose next.
hope i did ok!

 

[Andronicus]

@ juballs

I dont quite know how to break this to you but :shakehead ... I think you have been running T at 4fpt instead of 5fpt in your last 2 turns. Whilst you have produced a settler every 4 turns T has got smaller such that it will produce a settler next turn when it grows to size 6 instead of 6.5.
I reiterate - the most important aspect of a 4 turn SF is the 5fpt. Once that is achieved it is simply a matter of ensuring 30 shields in the 4 turn cycle. I recommend checking the SF town every turn before you press enter to check it is making 5fpt .
Currently T has 8 food in the box working coast instead of grass and is thus making 4fpt. If T had 5fpt in the last 2 turns it would have grown in your last turn and now be size 6.0 ready to produce settler at size 6.5 next turn.

On positive note. Well done finding the eastern passage from jungle isle . I note this is only 6 ocean tiles and can safely be crossed either with caravels or galleys + GLH. (although I just counted same from sea tile 1N, 3W of Utica - eastern one is closer to our core and to our goal in Celtic-America)

 

[Andronicus]

the mongol scout aint moving, we may have to declare war and protect west choke. we already have 3 guys, building 2 or 3 swords wouldnt hurt.

He may not be moving because he has nowhere to go (chokes block any return to own land) and had probably explored all southern area.
Suggest releasing the E choke (can disband warrior anyway saving 2gpt) and seeing if he moves (edit also need settler to move 1S).
I would be wary of warring at present as we are weak compared to everyone bar Americans (probably suffering at hands of GSs).


Construction can be brought down to 2 turns with some MMing
1) give Oslo mBG in place of unroaded grass and T work 2nd coast next turn (only req 2food to grow)
2) WV could use S lake tile allowing Birka one of N two and Cop other.
3) Kara only producing 1 shield and req 2 food to grow so game wasted - can use roaded grass for same production, 2 food and giving 1 extra science.

My suggestion to reduce unit support costs is to grow as many towns above size 6 as poss - FC, Stav & Birka dont req ducts and are first candidates. Cop, Rey and Oslo also candidates after lib, duct & poss harbour. 6 more towns size 7 will increase unit support by 12 and reduce costs by 24gpt less cost of ducts (but also more commerce bigger cities).

 

[markh]

I think I am up. I wil have a look at the save tonight and ask questions if necessary. Cannot judge the situation now without access to the game.

 

[Andronicus]

I notice that 3 forests around FC have been roaded and currently game forest by Karajok is being roaded (edit - also forests S of Aarhus and N of Odense). Given that the 3 forests around FC are now being chopped I think this is a waste of worker moves (quicker to chop then road leaving worker free to do other tasks sooner). I only suggested roading before clearing the jungle tile leading to dye city to speed up the connection, certainly not roading all forest prior to chopping. Was there a reason for roading first?

Summarising

Worker projects
- chops to speed court in FC
- road to dyes (chop forest NE of FC then road, then road jungle north)
- road to Odense to connect ivory (worker in place to begin next turn)

 

[juballs2001]

I notice that 3 forests around FC have been roaded and currently game forest by Karajok is being roaded (edit - also forests S of Aarhus and N of Odense). Given that the 3 forests around FC are now being chopped I think this is a waste of worker moves (quicker to chop then road leaving worker free to do other tasks sooner). I only suggested roading before clearing the jungle tile leading to dye city to speed up the connection, certainly not roading all forest prior to chopping. Was there a reason for roading first?

a second city was founded 2 E of FC and i wanted to ensure that the cut shields went to the FC. wasnt sure if roading them ensured that but i figured better safe then sorry.

once again, sorry about the settler factory. one turn to slow on my part, i know where i went wrong to, so i can correct it for next turn if the factory is still needed

 

[markh]

I got it, but I was too tired last night. I will play my set today in the evening.

 

[Abegweit]

a second city was founded 2 E of FC and i wanted to ensure that the cut shields went to the FC. wasnt sure if roading them ensured that but i figured better safe then sorry.

Roading has nothing to do with which city will get the chop. It is decided by the position of the city WRT the forest. Priority goes to a city one to the northeast (I believe -- that's within one tile anyway) and then cycles around clockwise. The tile to the north has the lowest priority of those at distance one.. Next goes a similar cycle for cities two tiles away.

In short, cities at distance one beat those at distance two and east is better than south which in turn is better than west. I'm not sure where the precise line between north and east is though. There's an article around here somewhere about it.

If you want to be absolutely sure of the chop going to the right city, switch the other one to a wonder build.

 

[juballs2001]

i did not know that, so i thought if a road was built the cty connected would get the shields.
once again, i assumed better safe then sorry. really didnt want to the shields to go to the other city's library, when we need the shields in FC.

i am not a micromanager, i PM'd Andro, and asked him to help me with the settler factory and he did, and i ran it, but one turn to slow.
as for what to mine what to chop, i generally get it and i assumed the road would give FC the shields.

 

[Abegweit]

i did not know that

No prob. The game is all about learning.

once again, i assumed better safe then sorry. really didnt want to the shields to go to the other city's library, when we need the shields in FC.

As I said, the sure trick is to switch the library to a wonder when the forest is about to be cut.

 

[markh]

I played two turns and we are in the new age. Do we gift Otto into the MA immediately or wait until the Great Library is completed. Two wonders have been built within the last two IBTs, so if we gift him into new age and trade rep and lit for his free tech maybe the great library could be built by another one by cascade if he trades it away immediately. I am not sure about this and I do not know which wonders have been built so far or who started the ones that have been built the last two IBTs, so AIs could switch to Great Library if Otto trades it around immediately. We have 4 more turns to go on the great library. Maybe I am too cautious, but I thought better ask.