SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Paul#42]

Played 6 turns by now.

Although having a nice kill ratio (11-1, 4 elite-wins) I did not get another leader.

When our GA ended I ran into trouble (riot in Bergen) and found out that we will have problems getting 4-turn-research.
I just traded Engineering to Spain for 4gpt and Chivalry to Otto (no Iron and horses) for 30gpt we are running a 22gpt deficit at 0.9.1 (344 beakers at 100%).
Celts offer 88 gpt for Physics.

I need a team's call: Trade for gpt to Celts to run our best research or keep them rich to get their best and research at 70-80% ourselves? I will trade if no objections come in the next 8 hours...

 

[pindicator]

Personally I would trade. Even with us pumping them ahead they shouldn't be much help in the research race later on. And they would only use that gpt towards research anyway; we can gift them any techs we'd want them to have for dominating their continent.

But the people here seem to know a lot more about Civ3's inner workings than myself.

 

[TimBentley]

I'd trade. There might be a possibility of them researching magnetism, too.

 

[jeffelammar]

I too would go ahead and trade.

If we can maintain fast research, it doesn't really matter what the others do.

 

[Jove]

I'd trade too. Even if we can predict what the AI will try to do, they're unreliable when it comes to getting around to it.
Maybe start saving money to buy workers and science improvements...

11 kills? Carthage must be in tatters!

 

[CKS]

I'm also in favor of trading.

Sorry I haven't posted recently, I've had a fun bout of the flu. I'm better, though, so I'll catch up on my reading and be ready to play when Paul finishes.

The rule change sounds very interesting.

 

[Paul#42]

here's the save

and I traded. But here's the whole story:

Pre flight check
Notation: I noted unit condition of own (after fight, before fight they are usually rested and if not, I wouldn't tell you) and opponents (before fight, after fight they were dead) in brackets behind their name. Although I kept track of our win loss record (w-l).


Take off

(0) 450 switched Rusicade to library.
Pike supports wounded berserk near Cartaghe.
Army kills reg NM in Theveste (7/9) (1-0).
some MM.
Switch Oslo and Karasjok to horsemen (shortrush 3s).
I want some more before I get Chivalry in turn (2).

IBT vet MI (3/4) kills our exposed vet berserk near Carthage (1-1) (
Karakorum worker --> worker
Oslo horseman --> university
Odense horbor --> university
Fauske berserk --> berserk
Sabratha builds Zeus for us

(1) 460 berserk (4/5) from ship kills vet MI (2-1).
ship-chain berserks from Alesund to Carthage, vet berserk kills reg MI (1/4) (3-1)
MI (3/4) kills redlined reg archer (4-1)
rush horseman in Honningsvag for 40g.

IBT Pike (1/4) defeats reg MI (5-1)
Bergen university --> market
Channel City university --> Palace (Cope Prebuild)
Stockholm Berserk --> Berserk
Alesund Worker --> Library (fish near, 60% corrupt)
Karasjok horseman --> Harbor
Vadso worker --> Caravel (Privateer prebuild)
Honningsvag horseman --> horseman

(2) 470 army kills vet NM (6-1)
gift Celts 100g, trade Chemistry for Chivalry, 235g (they offered 21gpt)...
Celts also have astronomy
e-MI kills reg archer (7-1)
upgrade 4 horses to knights (480g).
Draw back our units at Carthage, wait for more.
science down to 80%, waste 4 beakers at +77gpt...

IBT research Physics. Now ToG (4 turns at 90%).

(3) 480 5 berserks, 1 knight, 1 pike in position at Leptis Minor. Some need healing.
Celts would give 71gpt for Physics...

IBT reg archer attacks e-MI at Leptis Magna and loses (8-1).
Tatu worker --> worker
Reykjavik Berserk --> Harbor
Stavanger market --> university

(4) 490 Trebuchet bombs reg galley (2/3) ;o)
e-MI kills vet archer at Almarikh (9-1)

IBT Vet archer loses to army (2/9) (10-1)

(5) 500 Our Golden Age ends

IBT Ottomans end Alliance.
riot in Bergen call scientist in
Almarikh worker --> Settler
Madrid finishes Sun Tzu!

(6) 510 Trade Engineering to Spain for 22g + 4gpt.
Trade Chivalry (they lack Iron and horses) to Ottomans for 30gpt, 9g.
Celts offer 88gpt for Physics...
Vet Knight retreats from reg NM (2/3), vet knight kills reg NM (11-1).
Cannot hold 4-turn-research (344 bpt). Science to 70%.
Trade Physics to Celts for 30g + 88gpt.


IBT Trondheim Heroic Epic --> Sistines (Prebuild for ToE)
Kazan settler --> settler
Aarhus market --> university
Celtic Alesia finishes Sinstines Chapel, Richborough Knights Templar

(7) 520 Celts know Music
e-MI kills reg archer (12-1)

IBT Theorie of Gravity. Magnetism in 6 turns at 90%
Channel City market --> Palace (Newton or ToE)
Reykjavik harbor --> university

(8) 530 Battle for Carthage:
vet MI loses to vet NM (2/4) (12-2)
e-berserk (2/5) kills NM and takes City!! (13-2)
Aqueduct, Great Wall. Size 4, 1 resistor. 2 slaves.
vet Knight kills reg archer (14-2)
Leptis Magna
vet Knight retreats from reg NM (3/3).
e-MI kills reg NM (15-2)
Theveste
army (9/9) kills reg NM (16-2).

IBT Carthaginian AC (3/4) kills Ottoman reg warrior
Stockholm berserk --> aqueduct
Birka courthouse --> aqueduct
Karasjok harbor --> caravel (privateer prebuild)

(9) 540 Battle for Hippo (amphibian)
vet berserk (2/4) kills reg NM (17-2)
vet berserk (2/4) kills reg NM (18-2), takes city.
Hippo size 2, harbor, 1 resistor, 1 slave, 1 trebuchet.

Battle for Theveste
army kills reg NM (19-2), takes city.
Theveste size 3, 1resistor, 3 slaves.
e-MI (3/5) kills AC (20-2).
vet MI kills reg archer (21-2).

Battle for Utica
e-berserk kills reg archer (2/3) (22-2)

IBT Bergen market --> harbor
Leptis Minor worker --> settler

(10)550 Battle for Leptis Magna
vet berserk kills reg NM (23-2), takes city.
Leptis Magna size 4, w resistor.
founded Haugesund near cow.
left over some worker moves.

Landing

After flight check

Cartaghe is down to two cities. I could have erased them if I had knewn they only had one NM in several cities but I did not want to risk any losses so we could focus on buildings. We don't need any more units I think so feel free to switch all builds in progress.
I startet Newton and a ToE-Prebuild which can also be toggled (or changed if I started ToE too early).

I'd suggest to take on Otto in the next turnset Maybe with rop-rape but maybe that's not necessary.
Sorry I did not get berserks on Mediterranean in better position that's one of my major mistakes I always commit...

 

[Paul#42]

and a shot:

 

[Paul#42]

Oh, sorry, I forgot to take care of a reg MI in Ottoman territory, maybe some fast unit should hurry after him, if Otto lets him pass...

 

[pindicator]

Only two cities left? Guess that Great Wall didn't do them much good after all!

 

[CKS]

Very nice job on Carthage.

I've got the save. I'll look at it today and play tomorrow.

My first thought is that we need to get the Ottomans locked away asap as the Celts could arrive at any time. I think we should give them an inland city now and declare on them as soon as Carthage is dead. The two places we've discussed putting them are Tabriz (jungle city on the center lake) and west of Karakorum, presumably Almarikh (plains, desert, floodplains). I'd like some input here.

We have an ROP with the Ottomans, but we will have to keep them isolated anyway, so I think we should try to set up for the attack as best we can beforehand. It shouldn't take more than a couple of turns to get everybody in position (except perhaps at Izmit). We certainly can't delay the 16 turns remaining on our ROP, or the Celts may make contact.

We need to make a decision on TOE soon, too. Do we want to delay it for modern techs or should we continue our prebuild?

 

[TimBentley]

I think I'd rather get computers and miniaturization free than atomic theory and electronics. The Celts shouldn't be able to build ToE by then (we can try to get them to research replaceable parts and flight).

I'll be gone on Christmas break starting Tuesday. I'll try to see if I can play before it ends on January 9 (assume I can't), but I'll at least comment a few times.

 

[pindicator]

Agree on postponing ToE for modern techs.

I like gifting Tabriz better. The AI never seems to be very good at jungle; they never commit enough workers to it and their sporadic and seemingly random worker-improvement goals cause them to go even slower.

 

[Paul#42]

Agree on postponing ToE for modern techs.

How do we make sure that Celts do not build ToE before we need it? I guess we will be selling them many techs before we come to modern times...

I like gifting Tabriz better. The AI never seems to be very good at jungle; they never commit enough workers to it and their sporadic and seemingly random worker-improvement goals cause them to go even slower.

I'd rather like to gift them a city (to be founded) 2S-SW of Almarikh. Remember, any flood plain (irrigated with railroads = 5 fpt) will support additional 1.5 beakers. And even grassland is too good for them... Maybe some incense keeps them content in their reservation...
And Tabriz even might generate some income beyond corruption... our worker forces will clear that jungle soon.

How do you think about some of those workers in our core joining our big cities?

Looking at the map thoroughly now (finally ), I realize that Karistad doesn't need expansion (by building a library), maybe harbor first for growth?

Very nice job on Carthage.

Thank you. It was fun although the end of our GA drove me into deep depression

 

[Paul#42]

America did not do any good last turnset.
I'd suggest to doW and ally Celts. Maybe that also delays Celts visiting us.

I'd vote for taking ToE for Electronics (and the other expensive tech before ) to get Hoover fast (prebuild in Stavanger). But that opinion ist not very strong because I don't have too much experience in Modern Times research so feel free to rule me over...

 

[TimBentley]

How do we make sure that Celts do not build ToE before we need it? I guess we will be selling them many techs before we come to modern times...

They should get caught up researching nationalism and the two government techs first. We could sell them electricity and let them research replaceable parts. We could sell/gift them up to combustion (or let them research combustion, although we'd have to pay gold for that) and let them research flight. I think we can avoid having them research medicine until they're done with flight.

How do you think about some of those workers in our core joining our big cities?

Not when we're so close to steam power.

 

[denyd]

Great work on Carthage (Cato's "Delenda est Carthago" is a quote we don't often get to use very often).

I see Sabratha, but where is the other Carthaginian city?

It looks like the Ottoman have only 5 continental cities and 4 are coastal. Amphibious Berserks shouldn't have a problem with them and a fully loaded (3 Berserks can be carried by a soon to be available Galleon, so load it up) should be able to lead the chage on the other city. What are the off island holdings of the Ottomans?

I think Tabriz is probably the best spot for the Ottoman city, though I do worry about local flips.

Any idea about where India is in research? We'll need to defend our coastal cities once he gets Map Making. As for those workers, once the island is fully developed (mining/irrigated & railroaded), I'd like to use the slaves as human shields on the perimeter around India and keep a stack of 6 native workers for pollution clean-up.

Have we decided between taking Spain or America as our first target on the other continent? Once Carthage and the Ottoman are gone, I'd like to get on with setting up our homeland over there. What I'm thinking that would work best is to have a couple of airports on the home island and when were ready to let India out, slowly airlift the Mechs defending our cities to the new continent.

As for TOE, I'd like to wait until the Celts get to Electricity and then see where we are. If possible wait for the Modern Age. Knowing the AI it's likely to take Fascism & Sanitation as the bonus items with TOE

 

[CKS]

I'd rather put of the ToE until modern age techs are available, although I do worry about someone else building it, worrywart that I am.

I was leaning toward gifting Tabriz, but maybe a new desert city would be better. 2s-sw of Almarikh looks good, or maybe 3 s, as that keeps the lambs from them.

If we get the Celts involved in a war, it will possibly delay their arrival, but it may also slow down their research even more. I think we can take care of the Ottomans before they arrive, so I'd rather not pull the Celts into war.

 

[jeffelammar]

First: Nice 'ing on Carthage

Second: ToE: I'd love to save it for as late as possible, but we probably need to start it pretty much as soon as Scientific Theory comes in. If we have just a little head start on it then, we may be able to build it at a good time.

Third: With the homeland secure, I think it is time to start drawing up invasion plans for elsewhere. Either America or Spain sounds right to me. I'd like to eliminate 1 of them ASAP to hurry the overall science rate.

I'd lean towards America since their land would probably make for a better new core when we give everything to India. (We would get it + the Celtic land when we are ready) I'd like to get started on this while we can take advantage of our Zerks.

Fourth: As for a quarentine for Otto, I like the idea of founding a non-coastal mostly desert city in between Almarhik and Hippo

 

[Jove]

This is really looking good. Nice job.

ToE- I'd like to wait until the Modern Age for it. The techs are getting more expensive, and the Celts will get them slower and slower. If we decide we don't want them, or someone else, to interfere with our timing, we can just invade.

Workers- I wouldn't mind pumping up cities that have a university and market. Look for cities that can't grow anymore and build more workers there, to keep our supply up. Maybe it's time to buy granaries.

Invasion- Offensive units are expensive. Another option is to simply go nutz on workers on our home continent. Say we can achieve another 100 specialists soon- that's 300bpt! We certainly have the land to do it. At least for awhile, staying home and studying may be more profitable than partying with our berserks...

Ottomans- Sure, let's RoP abuse 'em. I suggest we have our forces positioned to take 'em out guaranteed, verify no contact, then go for it. I'd like to build them their own special town in the desert W of Leptis Magna.