SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[denyd]

Do not join slaves.

1. They are free (no support) and while they work slower, they still work
2. They increase the flip risk in the city they are joined into

My only reason for building settlers in the core is that they could be built fast and quickly replaced in cities that were already at the max size 12. We also need about 15-20 more workers to quickly complete the needed terrain improvements.

My concern about defenders is that as of my last turn not only were we short on defenders, but we had only a single attacker and he was heading for a boat.

As for the gold usage, I like having a little buffer in the bank once our deals with the Celts run out, we'll probably be running a deficit for a few turns.

Edit: Sorry about no Spain screen shots. Now that we have a full world map we can begin invasion planning.

 

[jeffelammar]

Now that the chaos of the Holidays has slowed down, I have time to take a good look.

Some points based on what I can see...
1. I agree with Deny on Workers. I don't want to join slaves or workers. We need our RRs asap.

2. I agree with Jove that we should be keeping those cities at 12 pop. The ONLY time they should be under 12 is for one turn when we peel a worker off the top. We should only build a worker in the pop 12 cities if it will grow back to 12 on the next IBT.

3. Mobile Defense Force. I agree that our best bet right now is to build 5 or 6 Knights (Cavalry if someone has researched that and we can trade). Once the RR backbone is ready, this will be plenty to defend home.

4. It sounds like we have a pretty big force off of Spain right now. If so, then I don't see any reason to wait to start the invasion.

And a couple questions.
1. Where are the Celts in terms of research?
2. Have we gifted the Ottomans into the IA to get their free tech?

 

[denyd]

I traded the Celts into the IA, they should be researching Nationalism (probably about 4 turns to go on it). I traded Steam Power to the Ottomans for Medicine when I signed peace with them. The Celts have Medicine and we have about 14 turns to go on a big gpt deal. They should have researched Nationalism & Communism by then and we should be able to trade Steam Power for that same (and maybe more) gpt.

One thing we might want to be careful about is taking too much gpt from the Celts. I didn't really consider it when I made my deals, but if we take too much we'll shutdown their research if they pay most of their gpt to us instead of researching techs for us.

We'll have 4 galleons of troops (1 Berserk Army, 8 Berserks & 4 Fast Units) on station in 2 turns. That was what I considered enough to take on Spain. I'd like to propose starting out by razing the non-wonder cities. Then taking Madrid and waiting for Santiago to finish Magellan's before taking it, which would eliminate Spain, produce a bunch of slaves and run a minimal flip risk. If that's our path we'll need to start popping settlers on the home island and layout a Spanish dot-map soon. We'll also have infantry soon, so we might consider building those instead of knights, better offense & much better defense for only 20 more shields (and they upgrade).

 

[Paul#42]

I want to explain my advice to join slaves:

1. Joining slaves in our core is no flip risk. Especially not if we join slaves from ripped civs.
2. We are well under limit of supported units so our prime workers are no more expensive then our slaves, that's why I would prefer to join slaves over workers.
3. We need to have our core cities at size 12 and I won't even let them go down to 11 for a worker because that needs a turn of production (and wastes shields in most cities) I would rather use for units or improvements (factory prebuilds). One more citizen in Channel City makes 9 more beakers per turn!!! I would join a worker there IMMEDIATELY!
I would also let all workers stop chopping jungles immediately and build railroads instead.

All other workers have to go down those railroads to our core as sonn as they can without losing a turn! We need those areas improved fast! Just by railroading the mined fields near Channel City we can have Smith's four turns earlier - that's a lot of money.

I am a little disappointed with our area around Ottoman's reservation. We already had a settler there to minimize his area to NW and should have added another one to SE before peace or expansion. No problem, we can still declare and fix that.

We need to rush workers and settlers in food rich towns rather than having scientists there at the moment. I do not want to know for how long Ta-Tu is not growing. It should have produced 2 settlers IMO. Endrine, Kazan, Leptis Magna also!! Haugesund does not need to work a mountain - both shields and commerce are wasted. Karakorum does not need a market, we need settlers and workers! Honningsvag needs some more food to build a settler or cash to build knight, worker (I know, I started that knight once upon a long, long time...).
Istanbul needs a unit to end the resistence and build workers instead of the harbor. Bursa needs no library - if we want the whale, a temple will do the job cheaper!
Why has Rusicade his only citizen turned an entertainer? Risor works two mountains for one shield - it could get 6 beakers or five beakers and four food!

Sorry if this sounds harsh but we need to do some MM everywhere!
However, no personal offense intended of course!

 

[Paul#42]

One thing we might want to be careful about is taking too much gpt from the Celts. I didn't really consider it when I made my deals, but if we take too much we'll shutdown their research if they pay most of their gpt to us instead of researching techs for us.

We are using the commerce much better than they do and we still need a lot of money. When we got all our improvements and enough workers I agree to make the deals so that we just do not run deficit. But before I would vote for getting as much as they are willing to give...

 

[CKS]

I think we are all in agreement that we need our cities to be size 12, more settlers, and more workers. I'll try waving my magic wand. If that doesn't work, though, I'd rather rail for faster growth right now than join workers while we still need them badly. I think it is a short term loss for a long term gain that comes sooner.

If we can get rails up more quickly than we get some knights built, infantry sound like a better choice. I expect we'll have the knights done sooner, though. While I'm not that concerned with an invasion, leaving the whole continent basically undefended is just courting disaster.

The Spanish invasion looks well set up. Making sure we are poised to take advantage of the new lands is the key to its success, though. This means settlers and workers over there, too.

 

[Jove]

Only if the town has not much more capability (production and research). Otherwise I'd rather have it reach size 12 soon and contribute. Ironworks should be more valuable than a worker factory (although this output is really appealing...)

I disagree. This 1-turn worker business can go on for many turnsets. Say the first 30 turns- we can get core cities pumped up to 12 and still have plenty leftover to rail grass in corrupt lands for 'natural' growth. Vs. what? Size 12 production and a couple extra infantry? True, not bad, but I'd rather take 30 workers and counting. The main goal is to get back to 4-turn research.


I'd be satisfied with taking this turnset if those already skipped don't want in. The discussion looks pretty active, I won't start too soon.
-What to do with the gold? I'd buy granaries and workers. We could get really a lot. Is Smiths even available yet? If so, maybe people would rather get above 1000g to take advantage of that.
-Spain. I'm not much of a razer. If people think it's best to raze cities over keep 'em, give me a list of which ones. Or all but wonder cities? Really? What if Brennus shows up claiming land?

-What else? I'm a micromanager, don't worry about that. I'll go for big core cities, rails, conquest of Spain, and population explosion. Science over everything!

 

[denyd]

Spain has 2 Wonder cities - Madrid & Santiago. My main reasons for razing were to remove flip risk and to gain slaves. As for Brennus claiming spots, we'll have transports back in the homeland in 2-3 turns, all we'll need is settlers to fill in the spots. I'm not really that determined to raze (I'm also normally not a razer), so capturing is fine with me.

As for workers, I agree, we need a bunch more to get our homeland improves ASAP. We can then export a bunch to improve old Spain and join the rest to the northern cities.

We've got a build in Channel City going for Smith's due in 14.

 

[pindicator]

Sorry guys, what a wild holiday. Not only do I have to deal with relatives, but then my comp decided to play games with me again, and that was the last straw. Reformatted yesterday, Civ3 not installed yet but will be either tonight or tomorrow.

Can we get a roster update? I haven't seen one in a while and am a little out of the loop

Agree that we want to keep pumping workers. Man, why would you want to dismantle a 1-turn worker factory? In fact, pretty much agree step in line with Jove's analysis. As for the wonders Spain has, it depends which two they are whether I'd try for a keep / raze. We definitely would welcome any slaves, however.

 

[Paul#42]

Can we get a roster update? I haven't seen one in a while and am a little out of the loop

We can:
Roster
Jove <== up but still tries to get to some more exciting turnset by letting others sneak in
pindicator
TimBentley
Paul#42
CKS
denyd <== just played
jeffelammar <== is skipped for forgetting his most important piece of luggage

Agree that we want to keep pumping workers. Man, why would you want to dismantle a 1-turn worker factory? In fact, pretty much agree step in line with Jove's analysis.

I disagree. This 1-turn worker business can go on for many turnsets. Say the first 30 turns- we can get core cities pumped up to 12 and still have plenty leftover to rail grass in corrupt lands for 'natural' growth. Vs. what? Size 12 production and a couple extra infantry? True, not bad, but I'd rather take 30 workers and counting. The main goal is to get back to 4-turn research.

If there is a consense beyond my opinion, go ahead. I'd rather have those workers built in our corrupt areas with some rushing and have like 40+ shields production instead of the worker factory (and some nearby towns get some of the needed food, too). And the science output in that area for 6 more citizens at size 12 (6 tiles =~18 base commerce =~ 36 beakers after lib and uni before corruption) should be easily like 30 beakers which I rate more valuable than 36g we would have to spent in corrupt towns every turn to get that worker there.
But I don't know yet what to use that production for - wonders? It's more a feeling, not carefully calculated so don't hesitate to ignore it

As for the wonders Spain has, it depends which two they are whether I'd try for a keep / raze. We definitely would welcome any slaves, however.

But we would also like some city for our units to rest and IMO our strategy should depend on two factors: our conquering speed and our culture in relation to Spain's. If we can eliminate Spain quickly and if we are way superior in culture we could keep their cities, if it takes a long time or they are at the same level culturally we should rather begin to raze to reduce risk. We should inspect their cities carefully like we did before the Ottoman conquest and maybe plan again, then.

-What to do with the gold? I'd buy granaries and workers. We could get really a lot. Is Smiths even available yet? If so, maybe people would rather get above 1000g to take advantage of that.

Do you mix up Smith's and Wall Street? Smith's pays our markets, banks and harbors, Wall Street gives interest of 5% on our treasury.
IMO Granaries would be too expensive and we could not rush as many workers and settlers as we could. Maybe just granaries in the most food rich cities.

 

[Jove]

Do you mix up Smith's and Wall Street?

Exactly.


I'll try to spend all the gold right away to maximize population/workers.

Worker Factory: Say everyone but me votes. If it's not a tie, I go with the vote.

Trondheim: Wonder or not? Do we want to gift this to Ghandi? Or what?

If everyone who's been skipped would rather just wait for the later, more exciting turnsets, I'll start playing this one in about 12 hours.

 

[Paul#42]

Worker Factory: Say everyone but me votes. If it's not a tie, I go with the vote.

Against. Rather Iron Works, Factory, Hoover (if possible there). Share flood plains with Fauske and bring both to size 12 for 60 extra beakers per turn. But there's no need for you to abstain that vote.

Trondheim: Wonder or not? Do we want to gift this to Ghandi? Or what?

I vote for gifting Aarhus (plus razing Delhi) for the most central position for their capital. So build a wonder if you like.

If everyone who's been skipped would rather just wait for the later, more exciting turnsets, I'll start playing this one in about 12 hours.

Nice to have you here now What time is it in Denver? 1 am? I will have lunch soon. Enjoy the night

 

[jeffelammar]

Worker Factory: Say everyone but me votes. If it's not a tie, I go with the vote.

I also vote for Factory and production. With the $$$ we can rush all the workers we want from unproductive cities.

Trondheim: Wonder or not? Do we want to gift this to Ghandi? Or what?

I think it already has Newtons, so there is no reason not to build a wonder there.

If everyone who's been skipped would rather just wait for the later, more exciting turnsets, I'll start playing this one in about 12 hours.

Sounds good. I should be back in the mix soon. I would probably be able to play Sunday or later.

 

[denyd]

I say yes to workers.

I'd prefer not to raze Spanish towns (contrary to earlier postings). They slaves would help, but we can rush workers from the larger cities instead. I think.

Wonders: Santiago has Great Lighthouse and is working on Magallen's Voyage & Madrid has Pyramids, so keep at least Madrid as we'll want that island to be a big growth island with lots of specialists.

We'll be done with Electricity during the next turnset. I was thinking we should start on Replaceable Parts next and then Scientific Method. The Celts should be working on Nationalism and will propably go for Communism next. Is there any reason to bring the Americans to current?

 

[Paul#42]

We'll be done with Electricity during the next turnset. I was thinking we should start on Replaceable Parts next and then Scientific Method. The Celts should be working on Nationalism and will propably go for Communism next. Is there any reason to bring the Americans to current?

Good subject. I was hoping to go for industrialization and let the Celts research RP but you are certainly right they will go for Nationalism first
With so much work to be done I vote for RP than Industriaization. Scientific Method can wait IMO because we don't want ToE anyway now and we need to get the Celts on track for combustion.

techs for America only if they can pay

 

[denyd]

The Celts should follow Communism with Steam Power (unless we trade it to him first) then Industrialization and then either Espionage or Electricity, so I'd like to head up the Scientific Method to Atomic Theory to Electronics path. If we keep feeding the Celts the lower tree techs he'll work on the middle path going for Corporation, Refining & Steel for us.

If we bring America into the IA and trade (gift) him Medicine, he'll trade it to the Celts (maybe for Nationalism) and then research Sanitation.

I was wondering if there's any interest in building Shakespeare's? Maybe in Stockholm and growing that city to very large. With those mined & railed hills added to the Iron Works, a factory and hydro plant (from Hoovers) that city is going to be a real shield powerhouse.

 

[Jove]

-If you're confident America will research Sanitation, denyd, I'd be happy to gift them up into the IA. A hospital, along with your suggestion of Shakespeare's and the other improvements, would make for a very nice city in which Ghandi can build SS parts.

-I'll start Rep Parts after we reach Electricity. I still think we ought to wait on ToE until the dawn of the modern age to get more expensive techs with it. We don't really need Hoover's until it's time to give it to Ghandi...

-I may burn a turn or 2 of research to get a worker boost. An additional 10-20 workers now would more than make up for the lost turns in the long run.

I'm ready to start, but won't really get anywhere until late tonight/tomorrow. I'll check in again before I really dig in.

 

[denyd]

I'm only 50-50 on America and Sanitation. There's the Nationalism component that I can't predict. Once the Celts have it, if we give Medicine to America the question becomes will America have enough with Medicine and their other assets to acquire Nationalism from the Celts. If not they'll go Nationalism first. If they do get Nationalism from the Celts it becomes a choice between Industrialization and Sanitation with a slight edge to Ind. That's the other place it becomes a guessing game.

I agree that a turn or two of low research to pump up our core to full production is probably worth it.

 

[Jove]

Ok. Considering the votes that're in, I'll switch the Iron Works to a university in 5 -> granary -> worker pump. If we get a leader, I'll rush Iron Works- it'd make for a slightly better worker pump at least.

I'll take another look at the AI research before I jump in.

I'm going to start some banks so we can build stock exchanges and then Wall Street.

Did some mm in the north for settlers and pop boom. Nothing is final yet, just taking a long look at the save. Time for work now, hopefully I'll finish tonight and you all can read about it at breakfast (or at lunch for the Germans...)

 

[Paul#42]

If we get a leader, I'll rush Iron Works- it'd make for a slightly better worker pump at least.

Iron Works to produce workers
You want to maximize the wasted shields, don't you? Take care that pollution on a flood plain does not shake the rythm of your factory...

Time for work now, hopefully I'll finish tonight and you all can read about it at breakfast (or at lunch for the Germans...)

I'm looking forward to that lunch break reading. Good luck!