SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[Jove]

Iron Works to produce workers
You want to maximize the wasted shields, don't you? Take care that pollution on a flood plain does not shake the rythm of your factory...

Yeah, for now. The idea is that the town could run the 10sh with 1 less population, leaving more land for the other cities and generally being more efficient.
I know I risk appearing ****oo for workers, but I sincerely believe max (and I mean max) population is the key to victory at this point in our game.

Basic principles:
-Don't join workers until a city is over size 7. Towns grow fast enough (w/RR) on their own up to size 6. Varies with circumstances, of course.
-Pitcher/Catcher: Some towns receive population, some produce it. They're dedicated. Just use your lights.
-Look for cities that grow in 1 or 2. Especially 2 really, if you're planning on doing a lot of cash-rushing. Don't want to spend 80g on 1-turn workers...
-The General Prinicple of Max Pop: High food cities never stop producing! A city like Stockholm, which can easily produce +10 bonus food, might as well fuel the empire. The alternative is topping out at size=12 and staying there forever. Why!?*!? If kept at size 4-7, it could produce 60+ workers before the end of the game. Really frees up other towns for other long-term, late-game projects.

 

[Paul#42]

Time for work now, hopefully I'll finish tonight and you all can read about it at breakfast (or at lunch for the Germans...)

After a five hours lunch break I'm finally losing hope to get this turnset's log in time before work is over

Tomorrow I will enjoy a long break for breakfast I assume...

 

[Jove]

Arrrr, delays and RL, etc. Sorry. I am on it.

Here's a preview in case I don't finish before work

 

[Jove]

Update. It's 840 AD, turn 9.

I'm afraid Madrid was re-captured. After the saltpeter was unhooked though. No horses either, but someone is trading them Iron. I'll save the rest of the not-catastrophic bad news for later and get to the point. We've just captured Barcelona and Bubba the Great Leader appears! Granary in 1 due in Stockholm, with ship chaining Bubba can rush the Ironworks there for Christmas. But, Spain has been pretty tough. So far, 3 muskets, ~9 pikes, a knight, several swords, many horses, archers, spears, some longbows. The other option is to build an army an rampage across Spain.

What do you all think? The invasion is a little awkward, another army would speed things up. But with rails, military production is cranking up, we won't need an army pretty soon... not even counting Rep Parts in 2. I'll have to finish after work. Sorry to keep you waiting!

 

[CKS]

I guess I'd rather not use the leader for an army, as I don't see any real reason to rush the war, though I don't have a strong objection either.

Somebody had mentioned that Spain had a pretty strong military, so it really isn't a surprise that we are having a pretty tough time slogging through them. It sounds like things are going about as expected; I'm looking forward to reading all about it.

 

[Paul#42]

Good morning America , Germany has begun to work .
Let's see what happened to our world while we were sleeping...
ah, we launched an assault on Spain

I guess I'd rather not use the leader for an army, as I don't see any real reason to rush the war, though I don't have a strong objection either.

I'd rather have another army (berserk or knights?) to keep things under control over there. Conquistadores can be quite a pain, you have trouble to find a spot to rest for your units. Iron Works is not so urgent (maybe rather rush Wall Street?) as I don't see any reason to keep Stockholm smaller than size 6 anyway (apart from the hill or mountain another town could work).

Somebody had mentioned that Spain had a pretty strong military, so it really isn't a surprise that we are having a pretty tough time slogging through them. It sounds like things are going about as expected; I'm looking forward to reading all about it.

Yes, I posted that, our military advisor rated them stronger than us and America. But with no war weariness to fear there indeed is no reason to hurry that war by emphasizing units over infrastructure on our continent. Maybe we should raze some towns (in border area) that we would have trouble to keep (by attack or flip).

There's a site for an Iron Works town in Spain, too. Nice opportunity to plan core cities with knowledge of resources Maybe we sqeeze in two cities to build IW?

 

[Jove]

Pre-Flight check-
MM everything. Can get electricity in 2 w/+141gpt. 'Max' science is currently 519bpt. We need to double that, then double it again in the MA, for 4-turn research. Psyched to go berserk for workers. Note we have 3 turns left on a furs deal with Spain, better wait until it's over to attack.
Note the Knights on the Seahawk. No need to use the Army for cover, knights are good enough. And the boats still have movement. Thanks, denyd!
To be sensible, only buy settlers in towns that will grow in 1. Purchases... Settlers: 5, Granary: 1 (Svolvaer)
Switch corrupt libraries etc. to granaries. Honnigsvag, for example.
Trondheim to... Courthouse. Merry X-mas, Ghandi!
Embassy Spain, 62g. They have 6 pikes, 1 LB, 1 conquistador. 27spt, musket in 2! Maybe tougher than we thought. Will use army for Madrid after all. Barcelona looks like strategic target #2- all their resources are there.

Ibt- zzzz

Turn 1(760AD). all settlers -> workers, granaries. Rail. Position for Madrid and Toledo (iron). Barcelona is too far for 1st strike. This won't be perfect....
Buy 4 more settlers. RR, move units.
Music Theory to Otto for worker. Map to America for Gold. Steam Power and Spices to Celts for all their gold.

Ibt- Electricity. Rep Parts in 8 @ max.
Celts finish Magellan's in Entremont.

Turn 2. Trondheim hooked to rail trunk.
Granary Leptis Magna. 3 workers. Science to 10%, +414gpt.

Ibt- 2 core universities online -> courthouses.
Lost supply of wines...

Turn 3. Settle Thunderfall in old Carthage. Is that Norwegian?
Rather than give up Electricity (that would divert Celts away from Communism and toward Rep Parts. We'll want police stations), or pay for gpt, settle for 1 less lux from Celts. We should have Spain's furs and gems soon.
Furs deal w/Isabella ends. I read Isabella only had 2 baths in her entire life! Not acceptable. DoW Spain. Land troops. Hope I don't get our army kilt!
Spain has a curious number of horsemen...
Buy 2 granaries, 2 workers. Sciene to 30%
Sell Abe banking for 4g. Maybe he'll earn us some money...

Ibt- only 1 Spanish unit attacks us: Sword vs. Knight on mountain, Knight dies
Workers coming online.

Turn 4- Battle for Madrid. 12/13 army kills fortified Musket, revealing an un-fortified musket. Send in E. Berserk, who dies red-lining the musket. ~6 fort pikes left. I want more units! 3/4 berserk kills V pike. 1/4 berserk kills V pike. 2/5 berserk kills R pike. 4/4 knight dies, promotes R pike. 10/13 army kills R pike. 2/5 MDI kills 2/4 pike. 4/4 knight kills 1/4 Musket and captures Madrid, the Pyramids(608c), Sun Tzu's(58c). Market, Granary, 4 slaves. And Saltpeter!!
Toledo- Elite Berserk dies to 1/4 sword after 3 pike kills Drat. Too many units around here. Raze to permanently end Iron for Spain. 8 spanish workers, many of which we'll need to recapture later, became decoys. Even though (and I've watched for this many times now) the AI cheats when it captures workers. An AI knight can capture a worker and then attack your unit. But knights shouldn't blitz!

Too much detail... Slaves board the Golden Hind to work on our homeland. 1/4 AC kills horseman just to be mean.

Buy 2 workers and a settler. 1-turn growth in Leptis Magna!

Ibt- Spanish knight kills our 3/5 MDI. They have a lot of horses, archers, and spears. A few swords, only 1 knight apparently. They also have 2 boats near old Mongolia.
Courthouse ->1-turn barracks, Trondheim.
University -> Granary, Stockholm.

Turn 5. Pillage saltpeter. We may not be able to hold Madrid- I'm Not moving our army or berserks in there to defend. So, the knight, MDI, and AAC will stand or fall.
Rush a barracks on W coast for our units to heal quickly in.
Switch Aarhus from Berserk to Knight.
Science to 100%. RP in 6.

Ibt- Knight in Madrid defends against 3 units, becomes elite.
slave lures knight onto unroaded forest tile far away from Madrid.
Spain lands 2 mounted units near Istanbul.
Barracks -> Knight, Trondheim.
1-turn growth, Svolvaer.

Turn 6. Land 5 more Spanish workers.
5/5 knight picks off r longbowman. 9 AA units parked N of Madrid! AAC burns saltpeter.
A mighty rail push, we have exactly enough workers to rail within 6 tiles of Istanbul. So, it'll be unfortified Knight vs. Conquistador and Horseman. They haven't started their GA yet I don't think...
Buying workers every turn.
Rep Parts in 5. Leave science at 100% until it's in.

Ibt- Defending against warrior, E Knight produces Inwaeer, the Great Leader! 3 horses later the knight is dead, but we hold the town. Until 2 swordsmen kill our remaining 2 units, and our leader His great project was: No Muskets in Spain for 10 Turns
Knight in Istanbul redlined def Spanish horse.
Conquistador ignores our terrain, captures Iznik.
Courthouse Bergen -> Galleon.
Celts build Smith's in Alesia. :thumbdown:

Turn 7. Switch courthouses to Knights.
Redlined knight flees to Honnigsvag.
Units all healed and ready to head for Barcelona via partial ship chain.
Brennus has 40+gpt to trade. Still not giving him Electricity.
Switch Channel City to Courthouse. You don't want to know how many shields wasted.

Ibt- Spanish boat (empty I think) off Ottoman Isle.

Turn 8. Rep Parts in 3 @ 90%.

Ibt- Musket Oslo -> courthouse?

turn 9. Spain is getting Iron from someone. No saltpeter though.
Battle of Barcelona: Fortified Musket. 11/13 army chops him down. Another. 4/5 berserk kills him, and Hubba appears! Reg pike now. 5/5 berserk kills him, capture Barcelona. This is their gems, horses, furs... Harbor, Market, Aquaduct. A nice bonus for us.
Well, the vote on what to do with the leader was inconclusive. In the end, I decided to leave it to the next player. Ironworks would be nice, and I'm confident we'll get another leader.

Ibt- Spain moving in on Barcelona. 16 AA units!
Galleon Bergen -> Musket.
Granary Stockholm -> Worker
Courthouse Molde -> Privateer

Turn 10. Kill Conquistador and Caravel retaking Iznik. Promotes knight.
I left all the boats and military units around Barcelona fortified. What do you want to do? If Spain re-takes Barcelona, we have enough lux to get by for a turn or two. You could ship-chain Hubba all the way back to the homeland. You can't ship-chain a defender to Barcelona though, sorry, try it next turn...
Question: If a berserk is in a galley that's in a town square, and it attacks a stack from the boat, when it returns to its tile, will it be on the boat? -we could pick off many units and still leave Barcelona deserted if this is possible.


-We have 28 towns that are less than 90% corrupt, according to CivAssistII. We currently have 7 courthouses. If we don't figure out what the OCN is, people are going to start laughing at us
- Spain is shot. With 1 boat we can blockade their capitol and cut off their Iron. They still have a lot of cities... if we let them have a GA and don't conquer them right away, we can fish for leaders while we pick off their longbowmen. We can develop the parts we already control, y'know, just delay destroying them for a little while.
- I didn't completely pack the Leptis Magna area to ICS levels. To save gold, to make room... it seems to be working fine anyway.
- Just didn't give Electricity to Celts. Tim Bentley's notes suggest Brennus will go Communism if Rep Parts isn't available. We want police stations for our mysterious OCN.
- Will the AI ever go sanitation? Could it be worth it to do it ourselves?
- We're producing the same science at 90% that we were at 100% in 750AD. Increasing, but we'll still need much more. Have lots of taxmen right now, RP in one anyway. I suspect this map was designed to make 4-turn research very difficult. I'm not discouraged.
-I never sold the world map, just territory map. Ususally I sell all maps.
- The rail trunk is almost done. Even a single infantry would change everything over in Spain....
- We have 63 workers, 26 slaves. Consider, with RP, a stack of 9 can plant, chop, irrigate in 1 turn.
- Speaking of 1 turn worker factories, with the Ironworks, I think we could get one at size two (2) in Stockholm. Wouldn't that be just great?

That's about it. I don't feel too bad about how the war with Spain went. We fought like Vikings- jump off the boat, kill, get back on the boat. Capitol moved, without gold or resources, we can pick 'em off. Good times. Now time to

ps. How long are the breaks in Germany?

 

[Paul#42]

@Jove: Nice effort in Spain. Bad luck with Smith's

I see another slave on our continent... Why not break the treaty with Ottomans as soon as we have two settlers ready to found new towns in their territory?

Breaks in Germany are just long enough to read your extensive logs...
Not long enough to wait for you to finish that turnset, I had to work between peeking for new posts

 

[Paul#42]

- Speaking of 1 turn worker factories, with the Ironworks, I think we could get one at size two (2) in Stockholm. Wouldn't that be just great?

How comes? Did some wheat show up finally? I guess we need 3 flood plains (each 5 food) and a hill (1 food) so I calculated size 4 minimum
- But size 2 would be great .

Maybe we could turn it a 1-turn-settler-factory at size 5?

 

[Jove]

You're right, size 2 won't work. We need 10 food plus 2 food per citizen.
At size=3, with 3 floodplains + city center that'd be 17 food. 1 waste, it grows to 4, the 4th guy works the (soon to be rr'ed) coal hill. With Ironworks, we get (6+1)*2=14 shields. Produce worker, back down to 3, do it again next turn!

Doing something about Otto is a good idea. I was too busy during my set.

Remember, the boats, berserks, and leader off Spain are still active. Pindicator is next. It's up to him now, just don't do nothing with 'em...

 

[denyd]

In most games it would be a no brainer to turn that MGL into a army as they're so powerful in C3C. In this game however, research speed is the gating factor, so his use is a lot fuzzier. I'd like to work a slow by steady war with Spain looking for leaders whenever possible. We could probably milk 3-4 more leaders out of Spain with a little luck.

Any thoughts to getting libraries & universities in all homeland cities (via cash rushing in a lot of cases)?

Just a question? Would it have been possible to switch Channel City to a palace (as a Hoover pre-build)?

For a more long term question, do we research Miniaturization? It's an optional tech, but with the Internet those free research labs would really boost research.

 

[Jove]

Any thoughts to getting libraries & universities in all homeland cities (via cash rushing in a lot of cases)?

Besides using cash, options include drafting and disbanding (after Nationalism), building units to disband in corrupt areas, and extensive forestry. And then there's working the OCN to bring down corruption empire-wide. And leader-rushing. We'll need to think about the optimal build order for corrupt science cities.

Just a question? Would it have been possible to switch Channel City to a palace (as a Hoover pre-build)?

I thought a city needed a river to build Hoover's. I knew this detail couldn't hide out in the text for long...

For a more long term question, do we research Miniaturization? It's an optional tech, but with the Internet those free research labs would really boost research

Maybe too long term. Techs cost around 8000b in the modern age. The Internet will give a big boost, but how much? How many labs could we build before miniaturization? I, for one anyway, am having a hard time picturing the math that far ahead...

 

[CKS]

You do need a river for Hoover Dam.

I'm torn about the Internet. We'll want it so that Ghandi gets it, but I don't know whether it is worth building early on for us. On the other hand, miniaturization also gives off-shore platforms, and getting some shields from our core cities that are working almost entirely water tiles would also be a big plus. We'll also want Ghandi to have them, too.

If we took miniaturization as a free tech from ToE and timed a prebuild to get the Internet immediately upon entering the modern age, it might be worth it. We wouldn't build any research labs by hand, as we'd have the Internet immediately. If we could hit 4-turn research immediately upon entering the modern age, then wasting a tech on miniaturization wouldn't be worth it, but otherwise all those free labs immediately would be nice.

 

[pindicator]

Happy New Year!

I am boorishly hung over, so no plans for Civ3 today. Will take a harder look at it as I feel better, and hope to play tomorrow/Wednesday.

 

[Paul#42]

Happy new year to everybody.

You do need a river for Hoover Dam.

Sure? I thought it could be on any fresh water...

I'm torn about the Internet. We'll want it so that Ghandi gets it, but I don't know whether it is worth building early on for us. On the other hand, miniaturization also gives off-shore platforms, and getting some shields from our core cities that are working almost entirely water tiles would also be a big plus. We'll also want Ghandi to have them, too.

If we took miniaturization as a free tech from ToE and timed a prebuild to get the Internet immediately upon entering the modern age, it might be worth it. We wouldn't build any research labs by hand, as we'd have the Internet immediately. If we could hit 4-turn research immediately upon entering the modern age, then wasting a tech on miniaturization wouldn't be worth it, but otherwise all those free labs immediately would be nice.

I think we should build it. We should have enough spare production capacity in our core and I don't think we hit 4-turn-research without Internet.

Do those space labs work without lib and uni? (I should try to play some Modern Times games soon... )

 

[pindicator]

Okay, taking a look at the game (need to take the rust off my Civ game as well -- haven't done much over the holidays). I'm going to defer for greater input as I feel I am among the weaker players in the group.

I take it from the discussion above I should aim for the following:

1. Send the MGL back home for rushing Iron Works in Stockholm.
2. Sit tight with Spain. Fish for leaders where possible; push forward only when more troops arrive. New Leaders should be used for armies(?) even if they just sit for a little while.
3. Continue developing home continent with workers
4. Infantry to the frontline
5. Settlers for the New World and Ottoman empire (we only have one currently); consequently need to plan out core locations on other continent.

How close is that to on target?

 

[Jove]

Happy New Year!

Your plan looks sensible to me. The big question to me, and the reason I left the military active, is what to do at Barcelona. We probably have enough troops to keep it, but we'd lose good berserks and there's a chance of losing our entire spearhead to a flip. Or, the boys could just inflict a few casualties and get back on the boat to choose another target. Should be fun.

Other details: I have a boat near Delhi in case you want to ship workers for stuffing or developing the southern ring.

-I think a beachhead city in Spain should be toward the top of the list. With some ship chaining, we can get active units over there in a single turn. Spain won't really have any defense, a few defenders and some knights will be very effective.

-Sanitation + Miniaturization? I've never played a Civ3 game like this, I'm not sure what will work best. Giant cities with offshore platforms might be a nice present for Ghandi...

-Leaders: Good question. How tough will we need to be to control Brennus? Would we gain more just rushing, say, universities?

 

[Paul#42]

My thoughts about the Spanish campaign:
We should raze Madrid. The three cows and the saltpeter make that city a problem. And we should let Spain take Barcelona, retake it and burn it, too. Make a beachhead at the Iron Works site, build barracks, factory and some culture there, develop infrastructure. Use a leader to rush Iron Works there, too. The 5% minimum rule will provide 3-5 shields even there. Place some new towns when spanish border "retreats", but keep 2-3 tiles distance and keep 4-5 spanish towns to West alive for leader fishing.
Bring over some artillery maybe (if Pikes keep coming) and let the spanish longbows come closer

Before rushing universities with leaders we should have 3 armies imo.

Is 4-5 spanish towns to few to generate a useful stream of archers? Maybe I'm a little chicken in this estimate

 

[CKS]

I don't think that research labs provide their benefit without libraries and universities, but I don't know for sure. I build the Internet a lot, but for its cultural benefit, not its scientific benefit, and I haven't ever paid attention to beaker output.

Iron Works is a small wonder, so we can't build it in two places. Which location do we want it in? We could get some reasonable shields out of an ironworks city in Spain, though. Actually, I take this back. After we vacate our starting continent, we can build in the Spanish location anyway.

I'm not sure about razing Madrid, as the wonders are nice - pyramids and Sun Tzu's. They will help as we establish our presence on the island. I'd suggest rather leaving the saltpeter disconnected and stationing a few troops, and perhaps some artillery, right outside to retake the city if it flips. Think of it as another form of leader fishing.

 

[Paul#42]

Iron Works is a small wonder, so we can't build it in two places. Which location do we want it in? We could get some reasonable shields out of an ironworks city in Spain, though. Actually, I take this back. After we vacate our starting continent, we can build in the Spanish location anyway.

Stupid me, of course we can only build one Iron Works . But even worse, it will be destroyed if captured so it has no benefit to Gandhi . As I doubt that we can rebuild it later I would suggest to build it on spanish continent. As well as Wall Street which will have better benefit for us later in the game (if ever).

I'm not sure about razing Madrid, as the wonders are nice - pyramids and Sun Tzu's. They will help as we establish our presence on the island. I'd suggest rather leaving the saltpeter disconnected and stationing a few troops, and perhaps some artillery, right outside to retake the city if it flips. Think of it as another form of leader fishing.

Stupid me part two. Of course You are right, I did not think of the wonders at all. Keep Madrid alive, maybe starve (or let take and retake) it to size 1 and let some Vikings settle there .