SGOTM 9 - jeffelammar

[denyd]

Just to reiterate (my word for the day ) where our focus should be

Goal # 1 - Research as fast as possible all space ship techs
Goal # 2 - Present India with as fully developed empire as possible
Goal # 3 - Slip India as much cash as possible (see Iraq, UN Guns for Oil program)
Goal # 4 - Make sure no one else can win the game

We need to do whatever we can to do to make those goals happen

To that end, Spain should go bye-bye, that will reduce tech costs and develop their island as our future homeland.

Here's what I propose:

1. Finish off Spain, keeping the Wonder Cities. No real hurry here so a little leader fishing is a good idea. Fill in open spaces with new cities while starving down captured ones. Use any new leaders to form empty armies. These will someday be filled with Modern Armor.
2. Research to Modern Era and trade Ottoman to that era, trade or steal that tech, then kill off Osman.
3. Keep using Celtic money to finance research until Modern Armor become available and then load those empty armies and visit the Celts (ROP Rape is ok)
4. Build Iron Works in Stockholm to allow it to combine with Channel City & Trondheim as our production powerhouses. All other cities should be fully irrigated & railed to maximize population (and scientists).
5. Research path should be: complete Industrial Age going for required techs only with a time TOE completion to net Computers & Miniaturization as final IA tech is discovered. Use a pair of timed pre-builds for SETI & Internet. We can use Palace & Pentagon as pre-builds.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Jove]

I like denyd's plan. And expressed in less than 5 pages. Nice!

- If Toledo ends up the only Spanish city that gets razed, that would be fine with me. The only reason to raze more towns I think would be if their locations just don't work for specialist farming. The reason: Those cities usually have marketplaces, courthouses, and other goodies. Just the market is reason enough to keep them! Also, as long as our armies don't get destroyed in flips, no big deal. We're ready to build a nice military advantage now if we want.
- If we leave Barcelona for the time being, burn the horses if you can. I'd rather fight horsemen than knights!

@denyd: Your post implies that reducing the number of civs in the game lowers tech costs. Is that really true? If so, thanks for the education. One more reason to

-The internet: Miniaturization is about 8000 beakers. So, to be profitable, the internet should yield more than 8000 for us. If that's the case, why not go for it? For perspective, if we max out on scientists now, we'll get maybe a little over 600. Do science improvements increase specialist science, or just commerce science?
-Dom limit is still pretty far away, but let's keep an eye on it.
-Invade America in the next ~20 turns to gain still more land?

 

[jeffelammar]

I too basically agree with Deny's plan...

Some points.
1. Internet: Build it. This is C3C, so Robotics is needed for Launch, so Miniturization should be early on our list of MA techs to research...
2. I also agree with not razing too many Spanish cities. We are planning on eliminating them anyway, so their foreign pop shouldn't hurt us.
3. America: Yes, invade. They aren't helping the research much, so I think we are better off conquering and using their pop as our scientists.

 

[jeffelammar]

Just noticed something else...

I disagree with using the MGL for the Iron Works. The iron works is only 300 shields, so I don't think it saves us much to use the MGL to rush it. (even at 20 spt, 300 only takes 15 turns and for a city with Iron and Coal, 20 spt should be easy)

I'd rather turn it into an army to be filled with Cavalry or Infantry, or even kept empty till tanks.

 

[denyd]

I've been looking for the article on tech costs in the Strategy Forum, but I can't find it (I'll keep looking), but basically the only player controlable value is number of tribes remaining, so the less tribes the cheaper the cost.

As for America, I was planning on keeping him on our good side, maybe using him (via ROP) as a base of operations against the Celts (if we prefer not to ROP rape the Celts). We'll need someone to serve as the middleman to India and America is the best choice left and once the Celts, Ottoman and Spain are gone, the only one left. We are quite a few turns from getting to the Modern Age with RP in one, what's next? Atomic Theory to Electronics or the top branch. We'll need to push the Celts if we expect any help from that source.

Edit: Since Mini takes 8000 beakers and the Internet is a 50% boost in beakers per turn, if we plug our current beakers per turn into the equation, we'll know how much it's worth to us.

Also I was hoping to use the TOE for Modern techs, so after we get the Ottoman tech, we can take Comp & Mini if Otto didn't get them else take Fiss & mini if he got Comp, but we'll need to have a big chunk of cash available for the purchase.

 

[Jove]

I agree with using ToE for Modern techs. So, I say we research the top branch, and do Electronics and Atomic Theory last. Maybe by the time we get there, we'll be able to get 'em in 4.

I'm still in favor of using the Ironworks for 1-turn workers, and weird as I know that looks. Seems to me like it'd grant a faster rate of science increase. But if I lose the vote, it won't ruin my day!

 

[jeffelammar]

1. ROP abuse: I don't see any reason not to do this to the Celts when the times comes. We can take America Down the Old Fashioned way.
When we deem the Celts useless (probably just before we finish researching, we ROP Abuse them, making sure to destroy their capitol, then leave them with 3-4 cities. We then gift them all our techs and elevator India up. There would be 2 civs with techs (us and Celts), so they would get everything. There would be no need for a 3rd party broker.

2. Current Research: I'm for AT -> Electronics. The AI loves researching the top tree, so while we get those, the Celts may tackle some of the top techs for us.

 

[denyd]

I've got no problem with IW creating a 1-turn worker factory for 20-30 turns, then starting a palace pre-build for SETI/Hoover/Internet.

Do any of our high shield cities have a river so that they can be the Hoover pre-build?

BTW: What's the Celts up to? Is he close to researching anything we need / want? Let's make sure he doesn't steal TOE while we aren't looking.

Edit: The reason for keeping America around is once India uses the GL elevator, he'll still be poor. If we gift 1000g + 25gpt to America, he can buy a tech from India and give Gandhi some cash to rush things (hopefull SS parts with). Once we've used the Celts to boost India's techs, we eliminate Brennus and turn off research and forward the cash to India.

 

[Paul#42]

2. Current Research: I'm for AT -> Electronics. The AI loves researching the top tree, so while we get those, the Celts may tackle some of the top techs for us.

D'accord. And we might build Hoover earlier which also speeds up our other big buildings.

Do any of our high shield cities have a river so that they can be the Hoover pre-build?

Just checked: Stavanger is our only high shield city on a river.

I've got no problem with IW creating a 1-turn worker factory for 20-30 turns, then starting a palace pre-build for SETI/Hoover/Internet.

With only one wonder possible in Stockholm I don't see much use to build it there (as I see no use to keep the town at any size < 6).
If it's common sense that we don't need it later on in our new world, build it. I would then rush it, because in a 1-turn-WF-town it would take quite a while to handbuild it...
(I still think we should make it a size-12-powerhouse, but I bow to the vote and I AM NOT COMPLAINING. We are also used to democracy in Germany, too ) (just if anyone doubts)

Edit: The reason for keeping America around is once India uses the GL elevator, he'll still be poor. If we gift 1000g + 25gpt to America, he can buy a tech from India and give Gandhi some cash to rush things (hopefull SS parts with). Once we've used the Celts to boost India's techs, we eliminate Brennus and turn off research and forward the cash to India.

Yes, keep America alive. Although we could also keep Ottomans for that purpose. Ottomans won't have any cash on their own but they would also have nothing else to spend it for except for techs from India... Opinions?

 

[denyd]

I don't want anyone else to meet the Ottomans so that all of our prior misdeeds remain secret.

I'd like Stockholm to get the IW, pump out 30-40 workers and then build a wonder or 2. Once India takes the city, we can build another IW in Spain. Minor wonders can be rebuilt if they are destroyed. In a recent GOTM, I abandoned by FP city and built a new one elsewhere.

 

[Jove]

AI research: IIRC, the going opinion on what the Celts are doing is researching Nationalism first, then the government techs (see TimBently at post 337), unless we give them electricity, in which case they'll go after RP. But then: unless we give them RP, then what?!? Point is, there are a lot of different paths depending on what we choose to do.

My suggestion: Don't sell Brennus Electicity until he's learned Nationalism and Communism for us.
I'd generally take required techs in order of cost, cheapest to most expensive, but skipping Scientific Method->AT->Electricity for last. If Brennus gets SM first, we can keep the option of taking ToE earlier. Brennus has been surprising so far, but still I don't expect much more science out of him, considering the troubles we humans are having with fast research...

War: At some point it won't matter who likes us. Not after RoP abusing the Celts for sure.
But before that, eliminating tribes will apparently speed up research. So, worth lookng into. Also, America looks like the last place to get more land before we hit the limit. More land would also increase science. We could use Otto to launder our gold, or find a way to get Brennus to do it.

The Present Moment: I guess we really don't have to give up Barcelona. Throw everything we got at the stack to the north, dig in until reinforcements arrive. Or not?

 

[denyd]

I located the thread (thanks EMan)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=38631&pp=20

Note that the only items the player has true control over is number of AI remaining. When beginning a new tech research the beakers & gold are zero and if it's a new tech then the number of AI who know it are zero.

 

[jeffelammar]

But before that, eliminating tribes will apparently speed up research. So, worth lookng into. Also, America looks like the last place to get more land before we hit the limit. More land would also increase science. We could use Otto to launder our gold, or find a way to get Brennus to do it.

This is why I would like to eliminate America and Spain ASAP... The fewer AIs the faster everyone else researches. We can always keep Otto around longer if we need to... As long as the Celts and Ottos are in the 1-5 city range when Shipbuilding starts, we can knock their spaceships out if they get close...

 

[Jove]

Ok, looks like we're agreeing on some points

I just want to add a request for players to micromanage the Leptis Magna floodplains area every turn. Swapping tiles around and buying workers can keep several of those towns at 1-turn growth every turn.

 

[pindicator]

Okay, so the way I'm looking to play it here in an hour or so (just got off work now, need to chill a bit before getting in some serious Civ action):

1) Hold ground at Barcelona as long as I can. Maybe retreat / recapture would be best, as that allows some leader fishing and we are safe on our boats.
2) Current leader heads to our mainland to rush IW Stockholm
3) More modern military needs to make it up to the battle front; fish leaders and slowly push back the Spanish
4) Beachhead for claiming the Spanish Iron Works site, other settlers come in as needed
5) Rush workers whenever possible
6) Research bottom line techs
7) Start Hoover Pre-build in Stravanger

and of course

8) Listen on the radio as USC kicks Texas' butt

 

[pindicator]

Only 1 1/2 turns in, and I'm going to pause for now for the night.

We lost our army on the second IBT A single archer took it down from 9HP while it was fortified in Barcelona. So I'm pausing to cool down / reassess the military situation. But if I thought they were going to come at a 2 defense army with only the 2 and 3 attack units (they don't in the ancient age, to my knowledge!) I would have gone back to the boats again. Here is the current Spain situation. Didn't show Spanish defenders, but there aren't many: 2 swords and a horse, if I remember correct:

The MGL is practically to the home continent, but the ships are set to send it back in a chain in one turn if we want to. Or we can wait 2 turns and have an infantry army instead. I don't think we need an army immediately, we should have enough troops. Once we get one infantry up there, the town is secure (except for flips).

Just to apprise the situation, Spain has also landed troops on our home continent in the very north. Nothing railroads and our military can't take out.

I may come back tonight, but will probably just mull over what I'm going to do without an army in the north tonight and go with that tomorrow. God, this is why I love Civ4, not nearly as bad RNG rape...

 

[Paul#42]

Wow. Brave archer that one . Could we bribe him?

As I rather wanted to use that leader for an army anyway, I suggest to build an empty army (maybe not in Barcelona) and get him back on the same turn (to start fishing again). But I won't build a defense army but another offense, maybe with Knights. I don't think we will suffer that bad RNG again...

Better luck!

 

[denyd]

If were going to build a an army, lets load it with Infantry. A Knight Army is 6-4-3 while an Infantry Army is 9-15-2. The extra movement point is trivial considering we aren't in a hurry to take out Spain. An Infantry Army would provide cover for out Berserks to attack from in safety as well as hitting harder than anything pre-tank.

First things first - clean up the interlopers (another new word) in the north first, then load up the Infantry Army and patiently collect the rest of Spain. We should be able to get Stockholm started on a brick by brick Iron Works soon and then use it to pop out a worker per turn.

I'm curious how fast we can research Atomic Theory. That's a pretty good indication of what to expect for Modern Era techs.

 

[jeffelammar]

I agree with the Infantry Army idea. (But that shouldn't be much of a surprise considering I was pushing for an army before)

 

[CKS]

Another vote for an infantry army. That was bad luck with the archer, but the AI will attack armies of any defensive value when they are in cities, and they have to get lucky sometimes.