SGOTM 9 - klarius

[klarius]

Gift and retake does not need more than warriors. You just position them with movement next to the cities you gift and retake them immediately. The problem really is that we have no cities except Copenhagen, which I would like to gift.

Reykjavik could produce 10-12 uncorrupted shields (depending if we get them all the good tiles from Bergen and Trondheim or not), but we need to be in monarchy for it to get effective. So that's about 35-40 turns from now that it could build the Lighthouse. That's a long time even if Entremont should build ToA first (and maybe already a medieval wonder after that).
Maybe we should really look into suicide ship chaining, to get some troops over. Entremont would really be a big prize. If we get the FP (or the palace ?) there it could spawn the settlers for a big scientist colony in a very short time.
The continents are not so far apart. With the lighthouse even a non seafaring civ can bridge the gap to the island we see in the west as well as in the east. It needs 6 turns on ocean and galleys have 7 with the Lighthouse.

Delhi has no culture besides is palace by now. There may be the chance to culture squeeze away most of their whales, but this will also take quite some time. We are probably about 15 turns away from libraries and will need culture doubling on them.

 

[Obormot]

First of all we have to decide exactly what our long term plan is. It appears to me that we still don't have such an understanding. Some ideas that are being discussed now are directly controversial.

If we want to keep indians backwards and block/culture-squeese Delhi's tiles then we still (hopefully) have a long time before they discover Education and can just play it out in a conventional way: first conquer our own continent while researching astronomy and then the other continent with caravells/galleons and i just don't understand why we should waste so much resources to capture Entremont early. Even if we get the FP there (and you cannot really rely on it even though we are militaristic) that is only one city + cash-rushing in other cities (which will slow down our research). Capturing that city only makes sense if we plan to start gifting cities to Gandhi very soon, which means that the GLib and blockading Delhi don't make any sense.

Since it looks like that some time ago we decided to go with the GLib strategy i would say that we should prebuilding TGL in Reykyavic (since there might be a connection between continents) while using Trondheim and Bergen as a 4-turn settler and a 2-turn worker factories (in monarchy). That would mean 2 workers per city which is about ideal. I would get all cities with fresh water to +5fpt and those that need an aqueduct to grow with such a speed as to build one exactly before growth to size 7. After that i would build no infra except for harbours in coastal cities and maybe just a few libs in the most commerce-rich cities and go for conquering and ICSing our continent and then the other continent. It is monarch and we have all resources, so conquest should be easy while building up a research core should be difficult in monarchy with expensive libs and no rivers in the core.

 

[klarius]

Obormot, the big deal with Entremont is that it can be a 2-turn settler factory. And with the pyramids the settlers spawned could quickly grow into science camps, while still building workers.
If we get it early we could even hand-build the FP there with just a rushed courthouse. It's just such a powerful city.
And we shouldn't go quick about conquering the civs on our continent. I would like to stagger their golden ages, so that they can do some useful research one after the other.
Celts will have their golden age now. After that they probably will get useless. Would be nice to get them then.

 

[Ronald]

Hi Guys,

Do you want to get a new record for fast gameplay? I am amazed how far we are already in the game. Just found a computer to read our thread.
I feel we should get to some strategic agreements soon:

Do we want to build the great library or not? (I think somebody on our continent should build it and we capture it for India)
Where do we want to settle finally? (I believe we should move to the other continent)?
Who is our first war target?
We should let all civs live to reduce costs for India to research.

So my basic plan would be:
Fast research has top priority
Conquer the world -1 city per civ as soon as possible (gifting cities to civ on othe continent will speed up the process. We should do this trick again and soon)
gift all techs to all civs as soon as they are no danger to us
move our palace to the other continent and develop a good core
Leave the old continent to India
Watch the Indians launch their spaceship in 1555 AD

I will be able to play on the 16th in the evening.

 

[Northern Pike]

These observations are based on the 1000 BC save. I assume Killer posted the save and then got distracted before he could do the report.

I like the idea of taking Entremont, but that possibility is still some way in the future, because we'd need so many units. To land ten ground units next to the city, while operating the suicide convoy in a way which risked only the ships, we'd need about fifteen galleys. One thing that's clear is that we're going to require a lot of galleys for any reasonable strategy--landing on the other continent, or blockading Delhi--so I'd suggest the following builds:

Oslo: Switch to Great Library, via pre-build until we have Literature. Given the AI's stupidity, we don't want to be subtle about where we build the Library for the Indians; it should be right next to Delhi. We needn't let the harbour build complete, when the town is going to be stuck at size six until it completes the Library anyway.

Copenhagen: Nothing but galleys.

Birka and Stockholm: Galleys after their workers complete.

Reykjavik: Continue with Great Lighthouse. So far our luck is holding and no one else is building it. If the Carthaginians cascade to the Lighthouse after the Celts build ToA that wouldn't be too bad.

Trondheim and Bergen: Settlers--and warriors for garrison duty when absolutely necessary, I suppose. We shouldn't forget the hill-city sites on the ring of mountains around Delhi's lake, as indicated earlier by Klarius.

I also like the idea of doing gift-and-retakes to get established on the other continent, but perhaps that should be done with Aarhus and cities we haven't built yet.

 

[Obormot]

So you suggest to conquer the other continent first because of the piramids? I agree that does make sense, but i would wait untill we can launch a full scale offensive, just capturing one city won't help us much even if it is so good (and i don't believe in 2 turn settler factories). I also think that we should capture the lighthouse ASAP so that we can go to the other continent without suiciding galleys and to prevent contacts between continents. This will also allow us not to build TGL. As for using AIs as research partners: i agree that we should let the strongest ones live for a while and time their golden ages nicely, so that we always have a GA AI to trade with, this tactics helped me a lot in my cotm space-race. And of course leave each AI one city, so that we can speed up Gandhi's research after he captures TGL.

Edit (crosspost): If we already started those wonder builds and nobody is building the lighthouse, it is fine too. I agree with your suggestions about builds except for the settler factories. I think keeping one settler and 1 worker factories is better the having 2 settler factories because new towns grow much faster (no need to build worker at the start and get +5fpt faster).

 

[killercane]

I posted the save before I went to bed, and dont have the report in front of me, but I know mostly what I did. Let me get caught up in the overnight discussion from all you eager beavers and Ill post the turn log from memory, and shore it up when I get home.

Gift and retake does not need more than warriors. You just position them with movement next to the cities you gift and retake them immediately. The problem really is that we have no cities except Copenhagen, which I would like to gift.

True, and we may not need our rep at all w/ monarch AIs and only Ottos as sci. I just dont want to do anything detrimental to it without really needing to. By the time we have 4 chariots built we'll have at least 4 cities that are primed to gift and retake. Maybe we should do 5 or 6.

Reykjavik could produce 10-12 uncorrupted shields (depending if we get them all the good tiles from Bergen and Trondheim or not), but we need to be in monarchy for it to get effective. So that's about 35-40 turns from now that it could build the Lighthouse. That's a long time even if Entremont should build ToA first (and maybe already a medieval wonder after that).

Since it looks like that some time ago we decided to go with the GLib strategy i would say that we should prebuilding TGL in Reykyavic (since there might be a connection between continents)

Oslo: Switch to Great Library, via pre-build until we have Literature. Given the AI's stupidity, we don't want to be subtle about where we build the Library for the Indians; it should be right next to Delhi. We needn't let the harbour build complete, when the town is going to be stuck at size six until it completes the Library anyway.

I am prebuilding in Reyk. It is using the lambs this turn and Bergen is building a settler in 1 @ size 7 with a taxman. Lit in 4 turns. Reyk will have the iron mined in 2 turns. It is not set in stone though and can switch to a harbor w/ no wastage; it has 24 shields invested.

OSLO- will build the harbor w/ shields on growth next turn and can do whatever we want. 25 shields invested. Reyk has a bit better total production potential. If we want the 2 GLs (light and Library), Oslo would be the better spot for the Library.

Running the settler factories:

These should now be set up for our post anarchy period. Bergen is building a settler in 1 and then it will be on pace. I count at least 10 city sites we want, and perhaps 12 if we are able to settle the jungle towards Mongolia and Carthage. Thats 5 settlers apiece for the next 2 turnsets.

Dotmap:

 

[killercane]

There is a settler at NC #1. It can be moved one more turn if need be.

I would put NC #s2 and 4 next in terms of importance. 4 may need to be moved NW a tile, but would lose the immediate olive.

The 3 city sites on the mountainous ring around India would be best done by galley I think. There is an upgraded galley in Copenhagen that needs to come around to ferry them there.
The damn server keeps going out but ill throw up a semi complete report in a minute.

Gift and retake cities would be Stockholm, Birka, Copenhagen, and New City 2 on the floodplains.

 

[killercane]

Log

Preturn

The worker is not on the game tile. Switch him to roading the tile since he's already there. Oslo can be fairly productive.

T1-T3

Switch up tiles to the lake in Trondheim. Warrior to warrior in Bergen. We should have 3 MPs up and ready by the time monarchy hits. Heavy use of the lake by Bergen and Trondheim.

-Monarchy on Turn 2 was due in 3, w/ us at 35 bpt and needing 77, so I hired 3 sci in Cope, Birka?, and Reyk. We need to get out of this despotism and make up some ground. Reyk was finishing up an MP warrior at the time, and had not switched to the prebuild yet. So monarchy in 2 came in at Turn 4, and we got a 3 turn anarchy .

T5- Pyramids by Celts. They start the Oracle, but are rooked on that 2 turns later by the unmet Spanish. Possible strong city spot for the Spaniards as well? Everyone cascades to ToA.

Reykjavik: Continue with Great Lighthouse. So far our luck is holding and no one else is building it. If the Carthaginians cascade to the Lighthouse after the Celts build ToA that wouldn't be too bad.

Note that Carthage cannot cascade to the Lighthouse as they are not coastal on this hand built map. They could cascade to the Hanging Gardens if we give up monarchy. Otherwise its MoM or nothing for them.

Turns 6-10

Not much on the diplo front. India now has Poly but no writing or math. Most everyone has poly. No new techs or money available other than HBR, which is widely known.

I found a new island off the west coast of America, but it was small and wasnt the Spanish home. My guess is they're on the Celtic continent.

Settler factories are good to go. There is a settler in Trondheim needing direction. He has no escort but the fog is largely clear. There is a warrior on the North FP that can come down to escort him if you want to put a city there. Bergen is build a settler in one with a tax man for a turn. Lit is in 4 turns IIRC.

Reyk is using the lambs for now, and will have the mountain mined in 2 turns.

Oslo is building a harbor next turn on growth. It can be switched to a HG prebuild, but would need to do so this turn.

Horses are hooked up. Chopping a plains forest at Birka for a barracks->chariot. That is subject to change. The chop is done in 4 turns, w/ a worker in 3 so we could get a warrior for gift and retake duty if we dont want a barracks. I would rather start pumping out chariots here though. Dyes are 3 grassland tiles plus jungle tile from being connected. A worker is being built up there in dyes city.

Gift and retake ETA I would say would be in the 2nd turnset from now. America would be the target and we would need 4-5 cities capable for that operation.

I dont know how we would stagger the golden ages, and Im dubious as to if that would work well for us. Celts have theirs in progress, and Carthage we could start against the Mongols, but the Mongols and Ottomans (and the crappy Americans) are not going to have theirs anytime soon or ever. We can start Carthage in against the Mongols soon to get the hell out of the ancient age. The ugly one's existence is useless. Methinks its better to conquer and put ourselves in control sooner rather than later.

To that end, we would really only be able to build semi productive 80 shield libraries at Trond, Birka, and Bergen with all the prebuilds going on. I wouldnt mind getting the settlers down, some troops, and start a few wars before we go into building libes.

When do we want to take our golden age? Options are w/ the berzerks or a Leos build. Personally, I would like for the Celts to build Leos and take it with zerks. Leos would be about the last wonder we would want if we take over Entremont.

 

[Northern Pike]

True, and we may not need our rep at all w/ monarch AIs and only Ottos as sci. I just dont want to do anything detrimental to it without really needing to.

Taking cities back in the same turn they're given away won't harm our reputation, even if it's done with warriors which are in (briefly) enemy territory when we declare war. This seems wrong, but we clearly established it in SGOTM8.

Your sitemap looks good.

You're right about Carthage as a non-coastal city in this game, of course.

 

[killercane]

Taking cities back in the same turn they're given away won't harm our reputation, even if it's done with warriors which are in (briefly) enemy territory when we declare war. This seems wrong, but we clearly established it in SGOTM8.

Then we could change to warrior builds, and use Birka, Stockholm, Copenhagen, and the gem city in 5 turns for the G & R. Dont they need to be pop 2?

 

[klarius]

One suggestion:
Get monarchy out ASAP. We still need research help with our puny empire. Everybody who has polytheism now will likely research monarchy instead of something useful next. Even if that may mean we cannot afford the next tech that comes up immediately that will increase the overall research speed.

 

[Northern Pike]

Then we could change to warrior builds, and use Birka, Stockholm, Copenhagen, and the gem city in 5 turns for the G & R. Dont they need to be pop 2?

Yes, G&R cities have to be at least size two.

 

[ThERat]

interesting tactics you developed in the last SGOTM. Sounds weird but it works. One question, once we have those 4 towns up to pop2, how many warriors are needed to retake.
I am asking because once we gift the towns, I am not 100% clear whether the AI gains a unit in there or the town is still empty. Which Civ do we aim at gifting? Celts first or some of the weaklings?

Will also look into gifting monarchy to get the AI up and running for other techs.
It isn't clear, but what are we researching right now? MM or lit or another tech?

 

[klarius]

You only need one warrior per city, but it has to have movement and directly adjacent to the city.
You want to take the city before the next interturn, so there is no defender (and especially no chance to poprush).
To get max benefit of the disturbance to the cities, you use them best for two civs. After the first gift and retake the cities are size one with a foreign population. If you gift them again the next turn to another civ they will not be razed on retake because of the foreign population.
I'm still not convinced that large scale gifting will benefit us enough in this game, but ok we can try.

 

[ThERat]

Pre-Turn
trying to prepare for the gifting stunt these turns
chnage Birka and Stockholm to warriro to keep them at pop 2
send settler out to city #2
also swap Oslo to HG, swap a taxman to scientist, they are always better value
dial up Cathago and give them monarchy for HBR and 25g
the Celts, America and Mongols also get it so they will research for us

1. 975BC
found Stavanger, nothing much else going on

2. 950BC
iron mountain is mined, GL in 33, too long at the moment
MM and swap tiles around, down to 29 now
Trondheim is on seetler and growth in 2
Copenhagen is pop 3, swap to worker and Bergen goes for the needed warrior so growth won't be harmed

3. 925BC
join a worker in Reykjavik and GL drops down to 26 turns
drop science to 30%

IT literature is in, assuming that the AI are busy to get to republic, go for currency
Celts start HG

4. 900BC
found flood plain town Odense and Hareid
this improves our research, move out warriors for stunt next turn

IT we get the FP message and Celts start the Colossus

5. 875BC
gift all four towns to Celts, declare war and retake towns

6. 850BC
take out the warriors again and wait for next turn to gift again

7. 825BC
gift the same cities to America, declare and retake them
my guess was correct, the Mongols now know CoL, how sweet
join another worker into Reykjavik and it's at 20 turns for the GL now at pop 6

IT trondheim gets another settler, Bergen as well, set it to library, but we can change to settler if we feel like

8. 800BC
research capability has obviously suffered a bit due to the gifts and now resisting towns

IT resistance in 3 cities ends

9. 775BCBC
Celts are willing to talk, but without America those cities would be in danger I guess
they would be willing to part with 1 city
better wait until we can talk to both

10. 750BC
found Molde in the west
there are 2 more settlers on the way up north, the rest is blocked by Carthago already
Indians are still stuck in the tech tree far behind as we wanted it
we should think about either boosting research or military to expand

construction is due in 6, Mongols have CoL, but I did not trade our literature monopoly since we want both GL's
Lighthouse due in 17, Library in 39

I assume that America is willing to talk next turn and we can then get those cities

 

[Obormot]

I see we have a terrible lack of workers and no irrigation on grassland even though we are already in monarchy. That's what i was talking about: there is absolutely no point in running a settler factory when it is not backed up by a worker factory. I don't uderstand the benefit of a library in Bergen, it will give us about 5 beakers per turn and maybe 10 when the town growth to size 12 - usefull of course, but by no means a great benefit, while building 2 turn workers will have a huge impact on growth in all towns.

 

[killercane]

I am anti-library as well. We have 2 luxes to hook up, AIs to take over, and slow growth overall. Plus there are still a few cities to get down. Thank goodness we're almost out of the AA. This early part is where monarchy is tough but hopefully it will be made up later.

We would have more workers if not for the G&R, but can we get a few more out next turnset? Our town to worker ratio is 11 to 5 or something like that.

 

[Obormot]

The worker situation is in fact so poor for a research game that i would put both Trondheim and Bergen on 2 turn workers untill we have about 2 workers per town. And those new small towns should be switched from workers to something else - we need to grow them to size 3 first so that we can have +5 fpt there. I didn't do the math, but my gut feeling is that a worker factory is much more efficent then building workers out of new towns because that slows their growth a lot. I always set one up when there is more then one site with a food bonus.

 

[Northern Pike]

I'll wait for Ronald to play tomorrow evening and then take my turn after him. This better suits my schedule, and in any case it wouldn't hurt us to slow down a bit.