SGOTM 9 - Smurkz

[Niklas]

Hmm, well, alright, I'll let you through on that one.
It was a good treatise on what you were planning to do during your turnset, but part of the idea with the strategy plans is to also post the longer term strategies, to make sure that everyone is completely agreed on what the road forward is. After all, as you certainly experienced during your turns, it is seldom that everything goes as planned during a full turnset. If you then know what the overall goal is, it is easier to make good decisions on the fly for the changed situation.


On a completely different note, it is painfully clear that both me and CF are MMers to a fault . We've discussed to some length the rather minor issue of how to improve gpt somewhat, but we've completely ignored the rather urgent military situation at hand with the invasion of America. I might have some time to look at that later today, unless WD has started playing by then already. The rest of you feel free to post your thoughts on the matter, no matter how short or small.

 

[WarDance]

No, no, I haven't started playing. I'll post my plans first... you don't have to worry until after that. The MM thing shouldn't be too much of a problem. The first time I ever took that close a look at things was in the last game. I have to say I'll probably not do as good a job of it as Niklas and CF, but I know I can deliver education in 1 and push 1 or both of the sliders down a notch, as suggested.

On the war front, some suggestions would be welcome. We have a pretty small force in place and some reinforcements about to arrive. What is our short term goal with them? I noticed a group of swords on a hill by "Iforgotthenameofthetown", but I remember the town being pretty big. I wouldn't want to attack there without being reasonably sure we could take it.
On the other hand, defenders might be thinned out in the American towns as they were just declared on by another civ. Going to load up and look at the save some more.

Edit: Questions after looking at the save:
Berserks? Should we really be building these right now? We have 3 archers we can upgrade, and we aren't nearly ready for our golden age yet. Doesn't seem prudent to build units we aren't ready to use. Can I switch them to MI or horses?

Our catapults are just sitting and using upkeep. Maybe we should move them to the new continent. They may not be all that useful at first but they will definitely come in handy when we land on the Spanish homeland. OOOOH! When we are ready to take Spain's homeland... ROP rape. Man, I hate that word. And I hate that tactic. But sometimes the ROP is the way to go. By then we won't care about our reputation anyway.

Several towns need aqueducts before they can grow further. Currently they are building units, which we need also of course. Are there any that you think may be worth coming off unit production in the near future to put in an aqueduct? They are Vladivosmurkz, adelphia, nansmurkzet, Arismurkz, and olive. Some of these would also need a harbor and a library to really make an aqueduct worth it, so maybe unit production is best for now. Let me know what you think.

Carthage and Smurkzala... should they rush their libraries?

There are 2 elite horses up by Istanbul and 2 elite swords in the mountains to the south. I'd really like to send them off to war. Could help with the leader fishing over there.

Do I need to do any mining around City for the Sages or are the forest tiles sufficient there?

How many more settlers do we need for the home continent? We also need to start sending some overseas, I think.

Tell me more about Sing Sing. This was planned as a Celtic prison, right? Maybe the island we spotted recently would be better.

Smurkzpoint is not connected and is building a warrior. Surely there's a better choice.

 

[WarDance]

On a completely different note, it is painfully clear that both me and CF are MMers to a fault . .

I will never be as good a micromanager as the 2 of you! Actually I don't want to be. That aspect of the game makes me crazy. But at the same time, I learn TONS from your micromanagement ideas and tips. In a competition like this we need that kind of input. Everyone has a different playstyle and it all has it's place. The real tricky part is bringing everyone's playstyle together and making it work.

Your MM tips and shields-per-turn calculations and such really helped me have a strong AA in GOTM50. I had a cool combo factory going that I never would have come up with on my own without what I've learned in the SG's. Of course I blew the MA's but that's another story.

 

[CommandoBob]

There are 2 elite horses up by Istanbul and 2 elite swords in the mountains to the south. I'd really like to send them off to war. Could help with the leader fishing over there.

The eHorses need to go to war.

The horses became elite fighting the Ottomans and healed during my turnset. I used them to block the Ottoman settler pair, but only because these were the closest units. They are too valuable to be kept on guard duty.

How about kicking the Ottomans off the land of Greater Smurkz, since they have an island prison they are sharing with the Mongols?

 

[CommandoBob]

On a completely different note, it is painfully clear that both me and CF are MMers to a fault .

And that's a problem? I hope to be half as good as one of you two by the time Gandhi launches his rocket.

Sure, reading the MM notes can be tedious, because it is very detail oriented. (To be fair, reading my turnlog is tedious to me, and its my log!) But since it is a skill I do not have and want to develop, MM away all you want. WarDance and I will learn by example.

 

[WarDance]

And that's a problem? I hope to be half as good as one of you two by the time Gandhi launches his rocket.

Sure, reading the MM notes can be tedious, because it is very detail oriented. (To be fair, reading my turnlog is tedious to me, and its my log!) But since it is a skill I do not have and want to develop, MM away all you want. WarDance and I will learn by example.

Right On, CommandoBob! I'll toast to that.

Long Term Goals:
Cripple Spain
"Give" Ghandi a nice new core
Hijack Ghandi's spaceship


Medium Range Goals:
Cripple America, and boot Spain off our new continent
Build second core in the New World
Find satisfactory prisons for Celts, America, Ottomans, Carthage, and Mongols.
Protect OCC civs so no other AI's wipe them out.
4-turn research all the way!
Embrace our inner builders and construct some nice wonders
Let Ghandi off his island

Short Term Goals: (My turns)
Build the Great Library
Universities!
War on America
Continue unit builds and ship them off to the New World
MM tips outlined by CF and Niklas
Research: Education in 1 turn, then Gunpowder and Chemistry, ending with a switch to Physics

I'm not ready to play yet. I'll wait for answers to some of my questions first and any additions to the strategy plans.

 

[ControlFreak]

I'm happy to teach where I can. In future turns, I will try to detail worker moves also since people seem to want that info. It all depends on the time permitted.

Sorry to leave the elites up north. You are right that I should have swapped them for some regular horses. I don't want to be totally defenseless against the Ottomans, so there does need to be a unit swap up there, or build up enough to kick them off our island. Oh wait, how about move the catapults up there, declare war but wait for them to come out of the city. Bomb units down to 1HP and attack with the elites. Good chance at leader fishing. It would take a few turns to set up but I think it's a better idea than sticking the elites on a boat for 8 turns.

@WarDance - I think you should add get a leader, capture/found New Zentral, and develop rings in preparation for razing HotB/New FP. Probably not to your turns but definitely in the Medium Range.

Your Universities task is really just to finish the two that are started. The others will have to wait until we build up more of an army. I would like to see 5? boats ready to head toward spain on your turns. Don't forget we need a harbor to upgrade galleys. Victoria would be a good candidate as it's close to the Eastern Crossing. My next post will show my ideas about America.

Also would like a discussion on our GA. I'm thinking we trigger it during the war on Spain? Can it wait until Newton's is built? I started some Berserkz just in case we want to start it earlier. These can be switched if we're not going to trigger it with Berserkz. Universities, Cathedrals will be better build when we're in our GA. Don't forget our towns could really use some temples too, but not until we have enough units headed to the other world.

 

[Niklas]

And that's a problem?

Being a good MMer is not the problem. The problem is that we tend to overlook other aspects, such as in this case the invasion of America.
Anyway, thanks for the kind words, it's always nice to hear that one's skills are appreciated.

@WD: Astro should be in the research pipeline, just after Edu. We want Copernicus, and we want to be able to upgrade galleys to caravels (note CF's comment on harbor in Victoria btw).

I'll have a look at your other questions in a while, in general your strategies seem alright.

 

[ControlFreak]

With America and Spain heavily engaged already, I thought it best to start a little farther south. All of America's units will be in the killing zone between Richborough and Entremont. I think Spain has enough units there already that Richborough will not see any action. Entremont may see some units since America has horsemen. Putting the Archer/Sword on the iron mountain and colonizing the iron as soon as the slave is done irrigating will serve two purposes: visibility of incoming units, ability to rush/upgrade swords to Medi in Entremont when the barracks finishes.

The swords outside Lugdunum are heading south towards Atlanta. They have two more turns to get in position. Coincidently the galleys can be in position outside of San Fransisco. (Note that the lead group is a turn ahead and can explore a little of the horse island before meeting up with the second group.) I believe with all the American forces fighting up north, Atlanta and SF will only have two spears each. If you declare on turn three and move to the jungles outside of these two cities, they both will fall on turn 4. The combined forces then move on Washington and should have plenty of power to take that as well.



An added benefit is that SF is wonder building. Our Great Library is also coincidently due in 3 turns. Spain has Feudalism so they will likely go for Sun Tsu. So I think America will cascade to the Great Wall based on our original investigation, America would be about 5-10 from the Great Library now (400s) which means, they are likely to complete the Great Wall in the cascade. We would promptly take it adding protection to both of our celt holdings as well as taking the walls away from America.

The smaller Western Strike force can land next to Seattle a couple of turns later and should take it. Depending on how many casualties are suffered, I would send the horses to Boston, leaving the Medi's to quell resistance, then send the Medi's to take Houston with some horses coming back to help.



It would be nice to send the reinforcements from the northern hemisphere via our original western crossing. But that would require new galleys/caravels to be built and sent from Point Smurkz. That may take to long to build them up. If you don't think it's feasible to open this route yet, continue to send the units to Entremont.

Spain is going to quickly get the upper hand (over America anyway). We need our reinforcement to take as many American cities as possible while they're still American. Once that's done, I think we can get Izzy to declare on us (cancel our ROP). They actually have a really nice cluster of improved cities NE of Entremont and we're going to need to cut their resources quickly.They have horses, iron and wines connected or connecting.

I'm a little afraid of the Conquistador's ability to move through our lands at 6 tiles per turn. They are available at astronomy in this mod, right? If we can't kick them off our new home before they get Astronomy, we can't leave undefended cities or we're liable to lose them.

They also have a LOT of boats in the water and I've seen them drop off four units at a time, like they actually know how to make a beach head.

 

[ControlFreak]

@WD: Astro should be in the research pipeline, just after Edu. We want Copernicus, and we want to be able to upgrade galleys to caravels (note CF's comment on harbor in Victoria btw).

Good catch Niklas! We definitely want Astronomy next. I'll re-review the list again as appearantly I wasn't paying close enough attention.

 

[ControlFreak]

No fair EDITing in all your questions after I read your post! I didn't realize there was a list of questions until Niklas started answering some of them and referenced them in his last post.

Edit: Questions after looking at the save:
Berserks? Should we really be building these right now? We have 3 archers we can upgrade, and we aren't nearly ready for our golden age yet. Doesn't seem prudent to build units we aren't ready to use. Can I switch them to MI or horses?

I think I mentioned already that they are for GA trigger but definitely could be switched. They would be useful in taking Spain's coastal cities without ROP rape when the time comes.

Our catapults are just sitting and using upkeep. Maybe we should move them to the new continent. They may not be all that useful at first but they will definitely come in handy when we land on the Spanish homeland. OOOOH! When we are ready to take Spain's homeland... ROP rape. Man, I hate that word. And I hate that tactic. But sometimes the ROP is the way to go. By then we won't care about our reputation anyway.

What did you think of my leader fishing from the Ottomans idea? I found the catapults but didn't really have a place to put them. They take up space on boats and I'd rather have two horses than two catapults at this point. We need more offense on the other continent. But if we fight a holding war for leader fishing, the cats will come in great handy. Their accuracy seems to be better on flat land units than attacking cities, so I recommend creating a killing zone and annihilating any units coming into the range. Ottomans are the best choice for now because they already pose a decent threat to our northern cities. Carthage is a close second. Both have a second city so could stand to lose their current capitol if need be.

Several towns need aqueducts before they can grow further. Currently they are building units, which we need also of course. Are there any that you think may be worth coming off unit production in the near future to put in an aqueduct? They are Vladivosmurkz, adelphia, nansmurkzet, Arismurkz, and olive. Some of these would also need a harbor and a library to really make an aqueduct worth it, so maybe unit production is best for now. Let me know what you think.
I think exactly what you stated. Starting an aquaduct means also building a harbor and a library. It's not just 100s, it' 220s. That's 6 Horsemen and a Medi, We can build these things in our GA after units are no longer as important as they are now. An if India must build them on their own, that's fewer sheilds they'll be putting into pesky units.

Carthage and Smurkzala... should they rush their libraries?
I thought about that too but decided I'd rather be able to rush a few buildings/units in our conquest of the new world. We're approaching negative gpt to maintain 4-turn techs so I was trying to go easy on the rushing.

There are 2 elite horses up by Istanbul and 2 elite swords in the mountains to the south. I'd really like to send them off to war. Could help with the leader fishing over there.
See comment about leader fishing "over here".

Do I need to do any mining around City for the Sages or are the forest tiles sufficient there?
You will need to mine a little. We want to provide an extra mine so that when the wonder build finishes, you can switch a forest to a mine without losing any spt. Then we can chop the forest to help the university. There are a bunch of workers finishing their mines nearby. They can start to mine over some irrigation and then mass chop forests but this can't start until Copernicus is done so it won't happen on your turn. We want to build up a lot of shields quickly to reduce the cost of rushing the University. Then we do need to rush it when it's affordable, so that we can start on the trek to Newtons.

How many more settlers do we need for the home continent? We also need to start sending some overseas, I think.
There are two settlers for the Atoll. Other than than, I don't think we NEED any more. There are a few fishing villages we could found but at this point, I think getting the islands, especially the prison islands are more important. The settler up north can ride one of the EasternAssault galleys to get to one of the islands off the American coast.

Tell me more about Sing Sing. This was planned as a Celtic prison, right? Maybe the island we spotted recently would be better.
I really like Sing sing as a prison because the captive AI can not build settlers. All other sites that I can see we will need to constantly watch for escapees. It doesn't have to be for the Celts but I want to give it away soon and the Celts were looking like they'd be eliminated by Spain/America/Us. Now it seems like the Celts are a bit safer with America and Spain infighting. I'm still not sure they'd roll over if Spain dropped 4 units nearby (they can make Medis). So I would like to gift it to the Celts to prevent their extinction. If you can found another more suitable prison for them before they die, that's fine with me.

Smurkzpoint is not connected and is building a warrior. Surely there's a better choice.
My only other choice would have been a galley. The warrior is a great unit to plant in Carthage to help prevent flips. By the time a galley would have been built, it would get autoswitched to a caravel and have to wait another 10 turns.

 

[Niklas]

Berserks? Should we really be building these right now? We have 3 archers we can upgrade, and we aren't nearly ready for our golden age yet. Doesn't seem prudent to build units we aren't ready to use. Can I switch them to MI or horses?

This clearly relates to some discussion on just when to trigger the GA. On the one hand it seems a bit early to trigger it just yet. On the other hand we have a great UU, and it would be a shame not to use it. I would probably switch to maces though, but we really need to go through with this discussion soon...

Our catapults are just sitting and using upkeep. Maybe we should move them to the new continent. They may not be all that useful at first but they will definitely come in handy when we land on the Spanish homeland.

Agree with CF here, they can be shipped if there is room but otherwise ordinary offensive troops take precedence.

When we are ready to take Spain's homeland... ROP rape. Man, I hate that word. And I hate that tactic. But sometimes the ROP is the way to go. By then we won't care about our reputation anyway.

I was going to suggest this myself, glad someone else did it first so I got to keep my reputation.
The one problem I can see with ROP rape is that it's too quick. If we don't have a leader by then, we may have to fight a deliberately slower war to give Isa a chance to build a fair number of targets for us.

Several towns need aqueducts before they can grow further. Currently they are building units, which we need also of course. Are there any that you think may be worth coming off unit production in the near future to put in an aqueduct? They are Vladivosmurkz, adelphia, nansmurkzet, Arismurkz, and olive. Some of these would also need a harbor and a library to really make an aqueduct worth it, so maybe unit production is best for now. Let me know what you think.

Agree with CF, units for now.

Carthage and Smurkzala... should they rush their libraries?

I would prefer not to. Sure we have a large treasury, but we should still be careful not to rush too much. We're in no pressing need of those libraries just yet, might as well let them finish in the natural way.

There are 2 elite horses up by Istanbul and 2 elite swords in the mountains to the south. I'd really like to send them off to war. Could help with the leader fishing over there.

I agree. CF's plan for leader fishing with the Ottos is neat though, you might want to try that first and then send them off after Bursa is captured.

Do I need to do any mining around City for the Sages or are the forest tiles sufficient there?

What CF said. But you really need to mine around Missi, there are far too many irrigated plains there. Prioritize those that are on the river. The idea is that instead of working 4 irrigated plains for 4 spt, we can work the flood plains and three mined plains for 6 spt.

How many more settlers do we need for the home continent? We also need to start sending some overseas, I think.

You are correct, and I agree with what CF said. Also any new settlers you build should go to the other side.

Tell me more about Sing Sing. This was planned as a Celtic prison, right? Maybe the island we spotted recently would be better.

It was planned as a prison, yes, and it's a great prison. As CF said, the Celts might survive anyway, so we could keep it unoccupied for now, but as a prison it's better than either of those islands. (Also note that holding this town increases corruption in the RCP 10 towns.)

Smurkzpoint is not connected and is building a warrior. Surely there's a better choice.

Smurkzpoint is actually RCP10, so once it grows it should be able to contribute fairly well. I see no reason not to build something more useful here, a warrior would feel like giving up on it. It's not like it's doomed to make 1 spt forever, like the fishing villages such as Sabratha.

EDIT: Btw, regarding CF's invasion plan, I'm a bit worried that we leave Lugdunum, New York and Chicago for the Spaniards to take (or for the Americans to hold). Those three are the most important towns for our future core, the rest of America can wait if need be. Of course we can always wrench them from Spain later on, but I think the fewer towns Spain gets a hold of, the better.

EDIT2: Continuing that line of thinking, it is possible to unload the WesternAssault forces just south of New York only one turn later than they would be unloaded south of Boston. I'm thinking that might be better, for a joint assault on the northern parts of America. All the troops can then move south at a leisurely pace.

 

[zyxy]

Just a short note to say I'm back. And it looks like I have some reading to do...

 

[Niklas]

Just a short note to say I'm back. And it looks like I have some reading to do...

Don't tell me you thought that wouldn't be the case!

Good to have you back!

 

[ControlFreak]

Agree with CF here,...
Agree with CF, units for now...
CF's plan for leader fishing with the Ottos is neat though, you might want to try that first...
What CF said...
You are correct, and I agree with what CF said....
As CF said...

Holy Cow you're ruining my 50% average.

I see no reason not to build something more useful here, a warrior would feel like giving up on it. It's not like it's doomed to make 1 spt forever, like the fishing villages such as Sabratha.

EDIT: Btw, regarding CF's invasion plan, I'm a bit worried that we leave Lugdunum, New York and Chicago for the Spaniards to take (or for the Americans to hold). Those three are the most important towns for our future core, the rest of America can wait if need be. Of course we can always wrench them from Spain later on, but I think the fewer towns Spain gets a hold of, the better.

EDIT2: Continuing that line of thinking, it is possible to unload the WesternAssault forces just south of New York only one turn later than they would be unloaded south of Boston. I'm thinking that might be better, for a joint assault on the northern parts of America. All the troops can then move south at a leisurely pace.

Ah, OK, that's better.

New York and Chicago contain the bulk of America's army. I'm not saying that we ignore them, only that we let Spain throw themselves upon the spear while we swiftly conquer the lower part of the continent. If we take the upper part first, we are forced to leave a bulk of our troops behind to protect them from Izzy or we run the risk of a backstab like the American's got. They had stretched to grab Celtic cities and once captured, were easy prey for Spains horde. If we start with Lugdunum/New York as we work our way south, we'll have our hindquarters exposed to Spain.

Following my proposition, we will end up with our strength facing Spain and will be ready to roll over their cities on Tadpole while we're mopping up the Americans. I'm also used to playing with the Great Wall mod. Does the Great Wall give free walls in all cities? If so, then leaving SF until later makes us fight through walls in every city. Even if it doesn't result in walls in every city, I'm not worried about letting Spain take a bunch of towns. The more towns they have, the more defenders they need. That will spread them really thin. Having moved from South to North, we will concentrate our older troops with our replacements and be in a strong position to overrun them.

Yes we will need to have the LAND that is owned by Lugdunum, Chicago and New York, but we don't need the cities themselves until the FP is moved. I'm estimating the best FP location is SW of the iron N of Chicago.



The location gives us great coverage of the bulk of Tadpole, allows us to keep Entremont as a first ring city and makes some pretty good desert towns that have access to food. Since it's outside the normal boundaries of Chicago, we can build this city as long as Chicago doesn't get culture. It's not likely to build any cultural building in the middle of the war so we should be safe for a while. In the event that we get a leader, we can move the FP whenever we want.

 

[ControlFreak]

Just a short note to say I'm back. And it looks like I have some reading to do...

Welcome back zyxy. Just in time to instruct me in the art of war.

 

[Niklas]

Fair enough, your reasoning about the logistics and defense makes sense. However, as you yourself noted, Spain has lots of ships, they could easily circle around to unload in the southern area.

Anyway, we've rambled enough. WD, will you play soon?

 

[ControlFreak]

Fair enough, your reasoning about the logistics and defense makes sense. However, as you yourself noted, Spain has lots of ships, they could easily circle around to unload in the southern area.

Anyway, we've rambled enough. WD, will you play soon?

Yes, we will have to watch out for landings, but at that point, the bulk of our army will be central to Tadpole and we can defend our new core easily. If we trade Seattle back and forth a few times, no big deal.

I'm curious to see how my plan holds up to our resident war monger zyxy. Any feedback?

WD, I'd say you could start playing or wait for zyxy and CB to give their OK. It would do us well to start playing to a schedule though. This is too good of a game to get guillotined. Maybe, 24-48HR for feedback, and then 72HR to play pending decisions to be made? (Maybe we're already doing that. )

 

[WarDance]

My electricity is off so my wife is posting this from work. The electricity should be on later today but if you don't hear from me by 2PM CST, please skip.

 

[ControlFreak]

My electricity is off so my wife is posting this from work. The electricity should be on later today but if you don't hear from me by 2PM CST, please skip.

Hi Mrs. Dance!

I hope you're power comes on soon. What happened?
EDIT: Sure doesn't look weather related.

Man, I could use some of your weather. It's been grey here for weeks and it currently feels like 29deg F.

zyxy@ are you caught up yet?