SGOTM 9 - tao

[Tone]

I hadn't thought of isolating him. Two problems though:

1. He could try break out with a galley just as another civ is sniffing around. Maybe we can get to Caravels (better defence) by the time he gets MM but with all that commerce I'm not convinced that he'd be that backwards. This doesn't mean that it's not worth trying.

2. Sight will be two tiles so we'd need to have a bigger cordon. This fact may make it less viable.

 

[Furiey]

Ooops

I was composing a post, got in a mess with my browser and suddenly found myself in another team's thread. I didn't get any info, but have PMd AlanH and will wait to hear from him before I make further comment.

 

[AdrianE]

I'm not sure we want to keep the Indian's too weak. The other AI's might dogpile him. We can't allow that.

We will also have to be sure to build the UN to avoid anyone winning diplomatically. The game should be well in hand by then.

Doesn't tech cost go down by the number of civs that KNOW the tech. Tech cost is constant by map size. Won't killing off other civs raise the effective cost for India?

The key to this game is keeping India's effective tech pace up. Also India won't build spaceship parts if it is weak and at war. They will build units. Ideally we find them a nice continent of their own away from us (with few ports so they can't build ships to attack us) and let them build the spaceship parts.

 

[Tone]

I'm not sure we want to keep the Indian's too weak. The other AI's might dogpile him. We can't allow that.

one reason for laying into the other civs.

Doesn't tech cost go down by the number of civs that KNOW the tech. Tech cost is constant by map size. Won't killing off other civs raise the effective cost for India?

You're right, tech cost does go down by the number of civs (that we know) that have the tech but this thread suggests that I am correct in that the number of civs left in the game also has an effect. In particular...

There is only one part of the formula that varies during the game: (1 - N/[CL*1.75]). There are two ways in which you can increase it to lower tech cost:
1. Increase N by exploring and buying comms to add civs to your diplomacy screen.
2. Decrease CL by killing civs.

 

[Furiey]

Just got the OK from AlanH as long as I don't reveal or take advantage of any non-existant info I gained.

The thing with the tech costs is that once we know all the civs N and CL are the same, so the formula simplifies to (1-1/1.75) and there is no advantage or disadvantage in terms of tech costs for killing Civs.

Looking at the Formula, it is N/[CL*1.75] that we have to maximise, not 1-N/[CL*1.75]. A few moments with Excel gives the following:



So until we know all the Civs, we are better off in terms of tech costs in keeping the Civs alive.

In terms of India however, if we can kill off the Civs before they meet them, then they will be better off in terms of tech cost.

 

[Sabre]

A lot is going to depend on the map composition. If India is isolated off our coast with nothing but ocean to the other side they will be without contact so long that they will be too far behind to catch up. Trading to catch up only works if you have something to give so all we have to do is ensure that anyone who has contact with India is ahead in techs. If India is as close to another continent as they are ours it will be harder to maintain their isolation.

Personally I don't think it matters if the other civs gang up on India if we follow the Ideal Scenario goodjob: on that by the way - definitely something worth working towards.) The only one that can hurt India until Amph War is us and we have no need of letting India off the island until we have a good core and a Great Library for them. By that time we will be in good position to defend India if we must. This is a Monarch game - no reason we shouldn't be dominating the world by that point.

So, early goals?

1 - Expand the first core (duh) - possibly getting a good settler factory on the other side of the cows? Tao can make that decision capably in his first turns. Moving an extra turn or two wouldn't be that bad on Monarchy if there was enough to gain.

2 - Get Great Library started. This doesn't have to be in a 2nd core - we can always let them capture a 1st core city and take it back immediately after they get their techs.

3 - Research to Map Making/Literature and get India blockaded. Again, depending on the map this could be more to keep India in than others out.

4 - Target and acquire a 2nd core to fund research and provide for India's revival. Do a palace jump here with a Forbidden Palace home? This would possibly leave open a jump to a 3rd core after 2nd is developed - we may need the extra production even after giving India their land.

5 - Go about conquering the world. Depending on India's progress we will need to decide how many civs to keep around for indirect tech trading of anything they don't get from the Library. Taking most of the world should be a goal, leaving a few patsies if we need them. This ensures India's safety once they leave the rock and gives us control of the endgame - and besides, war is fun.

6 - Always researching as much as possible. Beyond the early Middle Ages we will be alone in this, because Monarch AI is useless. Getting a good 2nd core will be crucial. Keeping an eye on India to make sure we get them the Library before Education - remember they may take a bit to actually get a force into our city. We should leave some error room since this could really hurt our strategy if we gamble and lose.

Any glaring logical errors? I figured I'd list out points and give my thoughts on them. Helps organize my scattered thinking.

 

[tao]

2 - Get Great Library started.

I would not start wasting shields on Great Library early, but concentrate more on expansion including wars. We can either finish GLib with a Great Leader from our wars or conquer it IMHO. At least unless the map is really tweaked. We will learn in time, hopefully.

 

[Keath]

We will need to figure out how or if we can manipulate Gandhi into building what we need. The idea of a quiet continent for India to research is a good one. If they were too involved in wars they may never get to space ship building. We'd like them to conquer our 'gift-cities' and use the resources we've built into them to build space ship parts. If they decide they would rather nuke us (because we've been at war with them for the whole game), then we have a problem.

He will be furious with us but at least we can look in on him to see how he's doing and if we had spies we could 'pay-to-peak' at cities that we hope are building space ship parts. I would hope that once he got going on those parts that he'd make it a priority but you never know, the AI is pretty dumb so the more we can do to set it up, the better.

If we were to prepare a core of cities for Gandhi's capture would it be to our advantage to leave Indian capitol right where it is? Isn't there some kind of bug or exploit that works if a capitol is well isolated from the main city holding? Perhaps this would work to India's advantage AND it can't be considered an exploit to leave India's capitol where it is, surely.

 

[tao]

Pre-turn thoughts:

We are militaristic, expansionist) - (pottery, wc)

F10 shows our competition:

India (commercial, religious) - (alphabet, cb)
Mongols (militaristic, expansionist) - (wc/wheel, pottery)
neoC (commercial, industrious) - (alphabet, masonry)
Ottomans (industrious, scientific) - (masonry, bronze)
Keltoi (religious, militaristic) - (cb, wc/wheel)
America (expansionist, industrious) - (pottery, masonry)
Spain (religious, commercial) - (cb, alphabet)​

What we need (having pottery) is a good settler factory capable starting position. No problem in monarch to walk around a few turns.

Research is another issue. We already know pottery, and I don't really like researching already known 1st tier techs. IMHO it is better to wait and trade for them (or get them from goody huts) - both favored by us being expansionist.

Before starting, my plan is something like scout, warrior, granary with 0 research. Let's see how "real life" changes this.

1: 4000bc: scout E-N, worker, settler E: no big news

2: 3950bc: scout NE sees another cow we have our settler factory, NW
settler, worker E (another bg)

3: 3900bc: scout 2 NW on mountain sees goody hut; worker starts mining, settler NE

4: 3850bc: Nidaros founded starting scout revealing another bg plus plains lambs
set 0 research on cb to prevent hut giving it; pop hut - deserted

5: 3800bc: scout explores west sees ivory

6: 3750bc: zzz

7: 3700bc: scout finds lots of forrest and jungle

8: 3650bc: Nidaros completes scout2 and I decide to start a granary; scout2 explores N; worker has finished mine and starts road

9: 3600bc exploring

10: 3550bc: s2 finds olives

11: 3500bc: s1 sees brown borders in the west; neoC?

12: 3450bc: s2 is also stuck in jungle north of Nidaros. But finds 3 dyes. s1 confirms border, but no contact yet. Worker goes to cow.

13: 3400bc: worker starts irrigating. We contact cute polite Hannabaline knowing masonry, alphabet and having silks, 10g.
We trade for alphabet, 10g giving warrior code. Start min research on writing.

IBT Nidaros' borders expand

14: 3350bc: s2 meets Mongol colleague. Genghis Khan knows bronze, cb lacks alphabet. To keep good relations, we trade for cb, bronze, 8g giving alphabet, 1gpt

15: 3250bc: s1 sees goody huts, s2 still in jungle

16: 3200bc: Seljuk tell us mysticism

17: 3150bc: s1 sees another goody hut

18: 3100bc: Goth eqworker joins us we just have to get him home; cow is standing in water (but we still work the plains cow to finish our granary), mine western bg - we might want to expand in this direction.

19: 3050bc: walking around

20: 3000bc: s1, s2 see Mongolian borders

Summary:
We have a very strong starting position for Nidaros. We have lots of room to expand. We have at least 2 partners/victims on our continent.

Sabre (up next)
Furiey
Tone
Keath
Renata
RRPatLaw
tao (just played)​

Edit: Upload server doesn't work; neither does attaching file to post; will try again later - sorry for the suspense.

 

[Tone]

...and besides, war is fun.

Especially with the Vikings. All those coastal raids you can manage with Beserkers (Gallowglass in the vanilla mod?) can really hamper AI development and this coincides neatly with the period in the game when their contribution to research tails off and they outlive their usefulness. If we want the towns we can have a few pikes/muskets to fend off the counter-attack or we can just pillage and leave them to try and pick up the pieces again.

 

[Tone]

Nice trade on getting alphabet so quickly. Sounds like a good position. I went to download the save but it's not there yet so I'll pop back later and take a peek.

Edit: just seen your additional comment so I won't hurry back.

 

[Sabre]

Looks to be a strong start tao. Hopefully our early luck is a bit better than last game's.

Tone - I got to play with the Beserkers in the first GOTM Vikings. I was doing 5CC so I didn't go all out, but they sure did put a hurting on a culture rich England! With a strong force behind them they make invasions a cakewalk.

PS - RRPatLaw's no longer playing.

 

[Tone]

I got to play with the Beserkers in the first GOTM Vikings. I was doing 5CC so I didn't go all out, but they sure did put a hurting on a culture rich England! With a strong force behind them they make invasions a cakewalk.

Was that one of Cracker's games where many of us went for a 20K VC? I remember it well, which is a mark of a good GOTM IMO. It was in that game that I learnt the value of GLs when playing for 20K. I didn't utilise the Beserkers fully but I've learnt a lot since then. I've played them a few times -they are quite powerful in C3C as the seafaring trait gives their ships an extra movement point. Build/capture the GLHouse and those ships just fly from one town to another creating havok wherever they go. I've even kept using them into the middle of the IA, razing tundra towns protected by regular infantry. This creates an excellent diversionary force that can often paralise the stupid AI tactics of rushing every available unit to where the nearest threat is.

Oh, I am looking forward to this

 

[tao]

Server working again.

Here is the screenshot of our territory I wanted to put at the end of my report.

And the save is uploaded too.

 

[tao]

Hopefully our early luck is a bit better than last game's.

In this case, we might do a barracks after the granary. Nidaros looks like a 4 turn warrior/settler combo factory and getting vet warriors would be good. If only the barbarians stay away the 4 turns (militaristic!) we need for the barracks.

PS - RRPatLaw's no longer playing.

I exchanged some more pms with him and he is just too busy on his job.

 

[Furiey]

No, but AdrianE is playing

Those Scouts can certainly go a long way!

 

[Tone]

Just look at all that space

A four turn warrior/settler sounds very useful with that expanse of land.

 

[Furiey]

I suppose we should start thinking about city placement. This worked well with SGOTM7, but we ended up with a few more problems when we went to move our palace in the last game. So do we plan for the move now? Build our ring pattern around a first ring city that will be the Forbidden Palace?

Rings around Nidaros gives:


Going on an RCP of 4 we could do something like this around a current RCP 4 site.


2 cows, lambs, 4 BG, nice site with no Flood Plains in sight!

 

[Sabre]

Due to overtime at work and finals next week I won't be able to play until Monday afternoon. Do we wish to discuss some more or have Furiey switch with me?

I like the Forbidden Palace ring better than the first.

 

[Furiey]

Unfortunately I have to disappear off in about an hour for a birthday dinner at my parents, so won't be able to play today anyway. Monday night will be my first opportunity so you might as well play Sabre.