SGOTM 9 - Wacken

[gozpel]

Ok, here's what I thought:

Oslo can build FP in 20 or so turns with growth, meanwhile we let Aarhus build a library, so we can get to those horses. That can be done with 3 chops and some coinrush. Oslo will still be able to use 2 forests and we better mine a plain, which Copenhagens library will expand to.

Birka can build GLib, but has to be vastly improved and to do that we need to stack workers. 2 stacks of 3 workers each can do the job and meanwhile Birka can grow a couple of pops by its own. It can only get to size 6, but will have quite a few shields and I think we can get GLib in around 30 turns. With a town SW of Birka's iron, the GLib can be worked at 3 hills, one irrigated plain and one mined plain. At least I think so...

What are we going to research in 4 turns after Maths? Do we want markets or do we want to slot in Aqueducts in some cities, Copenhagen would need one soon, but probably a harbor first in that town. The same with Bergen.

What about the idea of a library in Trondheim, it uses a lot of tiles each turn and could help with our research.

Our warrior force can go and smack those barbs and then go sit on those hills. That should be enough to deter any AI except India.

Did I make ANY sense here?

 

[gozpel]

I'm happy to wait another week to play my turns.

I know, I'm in a different timezone and everything, but please discuss something. We have some important choices to make and as modest I am normally, I really don't want to make any hasty decisions right now.

Hmm, I could do exactly that...I kinda like the flow of a game continuing...maybe IF I decided things on my own?....Wouldn't that make sense? I like that thought (restrains himself and whacks an empty beer-bottle against his head)

Hell no! It's not up to me, it's supposed to be a team-thing!

(deep breath)

please?

 

[Wotan]

Gozpel, will fire up Civ at lunchtime (2-3 hrs) and have a look. Sorry but the weekend was just too much social interaction to make room for Civ.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

C'mon gozpel, there is more than enough time. Just relax.

And yep you are in a different timezone. When you post something at 22:00 your time, i am asleep and not able to check things out properly before about 18 hours after your post.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Ok, my ideas without acces to the save file:

Library in Trontheim: More workers first. After that we need to choose between units and library. Without save file, i would say certainly units if base science output is below 12 beakers. 12-14 would be a case of doubt. more than 14 would be library.

Copenhagen needs an aquaduct first, then harbor.

City for using Birka's hills. Could be an option, but that would be the only use for that city. Maybe this would need to be a temporary city to be disbanded when TGL is ready providing Birka with culture.

We do not want markets for the comming while. We have too much to build already. We need damn aquaducts and harbors in some cities, and most importantly, we need units !!!
No time for markets in the comming 20 turns for sure.

Lib in Aarhus and FP in Oslo sounds good, but iirc i looked into that option and Oslo is already forest rushed or something and not able to swich its build to FP. So in that case, i think it should simply complete its lib, then do the FP and let Aarhus make a barracks and start horsemen.

 

[dmanakho]

I second Wacken's ideas....

Strategic plan for near future is simple expand, conquer, research and he gave enough details for next couple of dozen turns.

 

[Wotan]

I too agree with Wacken!

 

[gozpel]

I'm cool as a cucumber. slightly pickled though

Ok, aqueducts first, sounds good to me.

But we have a slight problem here, we are already paying 34gpt for unit upkeep and it will be more expensive for every turn. So how many workers do we want?

To combat this deficiency we simply need more towns. There are not many spots left on the mainland, maybe one SW of Birka and a couple in the jungles NE. Then of course the 3 spots on the mountain range. If we want to keep up research we will need some or all of those towns. (edit: and yeah, the island E of us, two spots there)

Birka, hmmm, I'm not sure how effective it will be at size 6 and some corruption. The good news though, Oslo CAN build FP right away and perhaps start on GLib right after that. Now we're talking around 45-50 turns to get the Library, which of course sucks. Again, I'm not sure how many shields Oslo can accumulate with max pop, happiness will be a problem as well.

Oslo have only 19 shields so far and going for a library first is a waste of time, so FP should be ideal there. And Aarhus build their lib to get the horses.

This is so difficult, I'm not used to plan anything like this and I don't want to screw this up. Forgetting a chop for a settler is one thing, mucking up the whole game is another

 

[gozpel]

Yes, yes, I know. I go overboard sometimes with my ideas. But this pic would've been in one of my games, as a future prospect to hoard a few scientists or whatever.

Don't take it too seriously, but consider the idea in the very long run.

Of course, if we want to gift the island to Ottomans, this pic is even more forgettable.

Me thinking out of the box and spamming

 

[gozpel]

Since I'm so bored right now, I make some more spam.

By the graphs, I bet that team klarius built a settler before their granary. But what the heck did they do then? They stalled and I think clever klarius wanted libs ASAP and that shows on the culture graph. By 750bc they got their first lib? He wouldn't build temples.

After this he start to progress, typically as I've seen in GOTM's and stuff. He is spawning now and fast. Plus with some culture and increased science.

Normally, I would put out that first settler too before the granary. It can produce stuff and even settlers. The "lost" turns on the granary is easily checked by the other town. Even SirPleb said so long ago.

Fortunately, we are not playing a culture/score game here.

This variant is so much more devious and things can go wrong for any team.

My turns has to be focussed on quite a few things. And the next players as well.
-------------

We need FP, I want it in Oslo - ASAP.

We want the GLib - I can't figure this out, maybe Oslo can build it quick enough after FP, maybe Birka can do it with some worker support?

We need units, can we afford to stop the road to the iron? I say no, unit-support will kill us soon. Well, we want horses right, so the iron won't matter for long.

We need to support our units, we need more towns. Stuff the corruption, if we can't afford to research, we have to make a plan to go on the attack. Soon. Therefore I say, we build a few more settlers, they'll save us money.

We need aqueducts and harbors in some places, of course in towns where we could build units. Units that we can't really afford.

I certainly do like this variant, it makes me think. If I played this alone, I would probabaly kicked out 2-3 settlers before the granary (starting building the granary when tiles were improved enough and with a couple of extra workers)

Now we sit on a big MF of a town, that can gain 10 food/turn. It's just crazy! And it won't even get an aqueduct in the near future. Food builds a civilization in time, shields makes that civilization.

Before I play, I want everyone to take a looooooong look at the save and come up with ideas. Call it brain-storming or whatever, sometimes crazy ideas makes sense.

If any of you calculators have time, figure out if Birka is good for anything.

If this is called spam, I would be very surprised. Ah well, I thought enough for today. Look into it and see if you see any realistic stuff we can achieve?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Gozpel, don't fear the unit support. Instead, be sure to use your units well and capture towns to pay for themselves.

 

[gozpel]

Gozpel, don't fear the unit support. Instead, be sure to use your units well and capture towns to pay for themselves.

I do fear it.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I do fear it.

That is too conservative. One should be progressive.

 

[gozpel]

That is too conservative. One should be progressive.

You are bold and what is your answer?

To be progressive is to keep the economy to it's fullest. We can't even do that right now.

Look at Offa's last pic, it says -39gpt - My scouting says 34gpt for units.

We can't afford many more workers, not without more towns. They will suck our kitty dry! We still need to pay for every horse/sword in the future. Now, we have to pay for what we got.

We need to kick out a few settlers.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

What i mean is that nothing should stop us from making horsemen. Horsemen sure cost upkeep, but they will pay back themselves. So we need to build those without delay. Holding back on horsemen production for economic reasons is harmfull for game progress. It is better to invest by paying unit upkeep for them now so that we will soon have dozens of cities conquered from the AI.

And i rather build those than settlers. Settling on the unproductive mountain tiles will screw up the production for our other cities. Settling those tiles and screwing up production means reduced horsemen production.

We might indeed have enough workers for now. And we can disband regular warriors.

 

[dmanakho]

Let's quit talking and better have some blood spilled
Carthagen must be destroyed (and so are the rest of lousy AIs)

 

[Offa]

I quite like Oslo for FP.

If you are really desparate to build horsemen now, you could use a worker to build a colony: that will help the unit support too. I presume we do want horesemen for war, or knights, rather than berserkers.

If we do take the attitude that the AI can't help our research then we may as well conquer ASAP, with the viesw that the scientists enabled by a large empire are worth more than the libraries we could hand build. It will make containing the Indians easier too.

What is our plan after getting maths: if we give it to the AI, and research currency, will they learn construction fast enough to be worthwhile for a trade?

 

[Offa]

Normally, I would put out that first settler too before the granary. It can produce stuff and even settlers. The "lost" turns on the granary is easily checked by the other town. Even SirPleb said so long ago.

I believe SirPleb king: ) said he would build a settler first if another site was available with an equal food bonus; no such site was visible to us so starting with a granary was in accord with his statements. In general, I think starting with a granary in +5fpt sites is usually right, including in later towns. Granaries seem to make sense in high shield towns even with only +2fpt.

 

[gozpel]

I think you're right, Offa. All this time I built my theory on a misunderstanding I'm amazed I didn't lose more often.

I want those horses too, we have to wage a war soon. So I think we can afford to sacrifice a worker to build that colony. That way we can start FP in Oslo and barracks in the other towns.

The AI won't help us much with so few towns, so Construction will help us the most. We need to get some towns up to 7 pop.

So no more settlers then. See, I can be reasoned with We can build a couple more workers in Trondheim, then we start on barracks and horses there too, how's that?

 

[gozpel]

Pre-turn - Wacken wasn't kidding when he said we have lots of things to build. Swap Oslo to FP and start some barracks.

I decide that Birka isn't worth it, to try for GLib. Too much hassle and I think Oslo can get there in about the same time after FP.

Send 3 warriors to the barbs.

975bc - The Mongols start the Pyramids and Ottomans ToA.

Odense worker -> worker

We meet America, they don't even know Alphabet. I hold on, we have green borders to check out first.

Oslo pop 6, luxes 30% and science 70%, due in 3t. We will have more luxes connected soon

950bc - Trondheim worker -> worker.

Say hello to the Celtic people. Sell Alphabet to Abe for 128g and get 124g from Brennus for the same tech.

Copenhagen is on 9 shields, lib in 6t. I would like to speed up this with a short-rush, but I feel we need to keep the money we have: 373g and -43gpt. We must get to Construction quickly, to get those aqueducts.

Warrior Bubba 2/4 kills a barb.

925bc - Stockholm and Birka workers -> barracks.
Stavanger barracks -> warrior for now, will change to horse when I have a free worker.

Reg warrior 1/3 take out barbcamp. Our dudes still have at least 2 horsebarbs to deal with.

Play with the sliders, Maths is cheap. Check around and yep, Ottomans knows it and we get it for 10g. Construction in 9t if we can keep up with the deficit.

900bc - Trondheim worker -> barracks

Ivory is connected, up research to 80%, still takes 8 turns.

875bc - Trondheim barracks -> horse, I'll build a colony this turn.
Swap Stavanger to horse.

Reg warrior 3/3 kills a barbhorse.

850bc - Spain completes the Pyramids!

Dyes connected too, it doesn't help Oslo much though.

Aarhus and Bodo build barracks with chops -> horses.

825bc - Mongols and Carthage are building MoM, Celts starts ToA.

Alesund warrior -> worker. Send warrior to Bodo to be disbanded.

Sell Writing to Abe for 90g, Brennus get it cheap for their 23g. We can keep up the max research

800bc - A warrior survives another barbhorse, that's the last one I think. Our curragh near Spain kills a barbgalley on defense.

Carthage finish MoM.

Trondheim horse - lib as placeholder for aqueduct.
Copenhagen library - court as placeholder for aqueduct
Karasjok warrior -> worker. Send warrior to be disbanded in Stavanger.

775bc - Mongols starts ToA

750bc - Stockholm barracks with another chop -> horse
Odense worker -> worker

Construction due next turn. In hindsight, I should probably have saved those 50 shields in Trondheim for the aqueduct, but horses were ordered. It was pretty stupid anyways

The 3 hills in the mountain range got warriors on them now.

FP in 12 turns, will be a turn or so faster with the mined plains.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm9/Wacken_SG009_BC0750_01.SAV