SGOTM 9 - Xteam

[DJMGator13]

If you look at the capture of Oslo pic carefully you see that India also stole over 500 gold. A side benefit we did not count on, as India captures more cities they'll continue to pull gold from our treasury. Hopefully they can use it to rush some builds and get that Dumbo busy again.

Edit: It gave them a lux resource also and has increased the pressure on Dehli.

 

[leif erikson]

If you look at the capture of Oslo pic carefully you see that India also stole over 500 gold. A side benefit we did not count on, as India captures more cities they'll continue to pull gold from our treasury. Hopefully they can use it to rush some builds and get that Dumbo busy again.

Edit: It gave them a lux resource also and has increased the pressure on Dehli.

A house of cards?

I'll give India the whole mess if they'll get a leader and rush Apollo Program!!

 

[bluebox]

Yes, they got 513g and a lux. That's good. We need to keep our treasury high as long a the Indians are on the roll; the more money they will make.

I think it's quite obvious why India initially went for other towns than Oslo: Oslo is much smaller! The other cities in vincinity are 15+x. Maybe the high culture value played a role. too, but actually I doubt that the AI evaluates that factor.

Willow, if you're going to play next it would be nice if you could investigate both Oslo and Jönköping first. I somehow missed to do that. It might be helpful for our discussion to see which improvements the AI does keep.

 

[DJMGator13]

Willow, if you're going to play next it would be nice if you could investigate both Oslo and Jönköping first. I somehow missed to do that. It might be helpful for our discussion to see which improvements the AI does keep.

I was going to ask if you knew what Jonk was no building.

 

[leif erikson]

OOoopps, I messed up. The Kelts were gifted up, so they need to go bye-bye, right? Not the Otto's!

I'll try and have a look tomorrow as I think we need to figure out how we want to rearrange the landscape to make sure The Americans, Spanish and Ottos all have a lux to trade with India. Iirc, the Aluminum and Uranium situation is fairly well set, but I'll try to remember to check that as well.

Time to turn in.

 

[WillowBrook]

Got it!

Congratulations Bluebox!

I won't be able to play until tomorrow night, though hopefully I can look at the game tomorrow morning.

Completely unhindered by any actual look at the save, here are some preliminary thoughts:
- Take out the Kelts so only we and India know lots of stuff
- Cut the Americans down to size, at least securing all uranium sources (I think we should prevent the building of the Manhattan Project until only uranium-requiring SS parts are left).
- Ensure that someone (who? Ottomans? ) has at least two sources of aluminum
- Gift lux-high towns (with airports) to one or more civs
- Avoid the domination limit
- Create worker trails to other cities (any particular order?) (note also that we have tons of slaves for this task already)

I'll try to investigate and post screenies of the Indian cities tomorrow morning to allow better-informed comment.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

bluebox!

Excellent turnset. Good luck, Willow. I'll pop in later today and maybe post more comments (if I have them, seems like my limited ModAge exp starts to show ).
Got a job interview this morning...

 

[bluebox]

- Take out the Kelts so only we and India know lots of stuff

Remember that the Kelts have a MMP with the Spanish. Don't know if they declare when their partner is gone the same turn, but I guess ist would happen.

 

[DJMGator13]

I think they declare as soon as we attack a unit.

 

[WillowBrook]

Okay - some recon for everyone to consider.

Here's Jonkoping:

And Oslo:

Note that the Jumbo win put them in their GA. It'll be a rather sucky GA, but better now than earlier, I guess.

Note also that they're getting a bunch of resources, but no aluminum (or uranium, for that matter) - that makes sense because no one but us has extra aluminum. Barring convincing objections, I'll gift two other aluminum-only towns to the Ottomans before I press enter.

And India is a democracy!?!

I investigated a few more cities and found:
- the Ottomans are 32 turns from completing the Apollo Program (we'll have to keep an eye on that - but as long as they're building that, they're not cause us other trouble)
- The Kelts have 2 spears, a rifle, 2 galleons, 2 ironclads, and a galley in their only city. The palace is the only building. And they are building wealth.
- Washington is protected by 5 infantry. Since they tend to have the most defense in the capital, I don't imagine the Americans will be too hard to take out.

Final note: I think we should let the Indians capure Upsetta next for the Internet culture boost. But I'm open to other suggestions.

 

[leif erikson]

I am starting to wonder if we should complete this game as a Always War game to force the remaining Civs together. I think it accomplishes two things, forces them into alliances and trade and allows us to go after anything we don't want to happen. An example is the Otto's completion of Apollo.

We discussed this earlier but didn't come to any conclusions that I remember. The only problem now is that India, from Willow's screenies, has Wines. Wonder where that came from?

So, we continue to gift the cities near Stavenger to the Ottos so that they have the wines and the aluminium. Ottos would also get Snatander and Verulamium.

The Spanish could have Istanbul and the Spices.

The Americans could have Entremont and the Wool. That means sacrifing the Wonders in Entremont. We would also have to give the Americans a new palace home way south, say St. Louis.

Then we eliminate Kelts.

I had screenies all preped but I couldn't get the file upload to work properly and I didn't want to attach them as more than 1 won't show.

Willow, your to do list is looking pretty good to me. The questions are whether we can now stop worrying about wonder cities and gift them, or better yet, destroy and rebuild them to allow the other civs access to lux for trade to India.

Most important is getting Aluminium to India so they can start Apollo.

I wonder who traded wines to India already?? And for what?

EDIT - I have no problem with giving the Indian's whatever they want, including Upsetta. Maybe it will help them start Apollo!!!!

 

[DJMGator13]

If we finish this as an AW then we need to make sure only India captures the cities we want them to get. Not sure that it matters much at this point. We just want to make sure no one else can build the space ship.

 

[WillowBrook]

I suspect that the Americans traded them wines - they have two sources. And the Americans now have rocketry. I'll make sure I don't capture both of Abe's wines so the Americans don't lose trade rep with the Indians.

Madrid has a palace pre-build going that can turn into a new FP as soon as we lose the one in Upsetta.

We had talked about another palace jump for the Indians - probably to Graceland for the RCP. If we want to go with that, Graceland should be next. if anyone has strong feelings, you'll need to post within an hour or so, as I'll be playing soon.

As for all war, I'm not ready to declare on everyone else at this point, but starting in on the Americans will start us in that direction. We'll probably end up at war with Spain as well once I declare on the Kelts. But that's fine as they have a source of uranium we want in our possession.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

EDIT - I have no problem with giving the Indian's whatever they want, including Upsetta. Maybe it will help them start Apollo!!!!

If the Ottos are building Apollo's and, as I interpret it, other teams have problems with Gandhi feeling uppity once he gets a good core, perhaps we should consider not giving Gandhi all that much land and hope that keeping him weak will make him more interested in winning by peaceful means?

He'll need a harbour or airport of course. And at least one good city to build the SW in.
Willow: when you investigated, did you check if Oslo's airport was still intact?

 

[WillowBrook]

Willow: when you investigated, did you check if Oslo's airport was still intact?

I didn't explicitly check, but the airport symbol remains by the city, and they have to be bringing in the wines, saltpeter, oil, and horses somehow.

I doubt that keeping the Indians small will do much to propel them to the moon as long as they're at war with us - they'll just keep building units. I think the idea of letting them take the whole lower core was so they would divert at least a few cities to peaceful purposes.

But I'm open to more discussion on this.

I think the idea of going AW (for us) was to encourage the rest of the world to trade with India.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

yes, sorry As long as they're bringing in goods, the airport is still there.

 

[leif erikson]

I doubt that keeping the Indians small will do much to propel them to the moon as long as they're at war with us - they'll just keep building units. I think the idea of letting them take the whole lower core was so they would divert at least a few cities to peaceful purposes.

Yes, I agree with this. If we can get them enough production capacity, then perhaps, they will use some of it for non-military purposes, I hope.

I think the idea of going AW (for us) was to encourage the rest of the world to trade with India.

It not just that but also allows us to not worry about consequences or ruined reputaion when we need to strike someone immediately to wipe out a space ship part's production or whatever else we see fit to do.

As India starts to take things, with no need to research anything, I think we should also consider a switch to Monarchy; or Communism, although I don't really think Communism is going to help us much. The other nice thing about Monarchy is that we can use some MP's if we can't get Lux's because India needs them.

EDIT - BTW, I think you are right Willow that we don't need to play as AW immediately. There are things that we need to do to set things up as you have planned. And just because we say AW doesn't mean we can't make a peace if we need to for a short time, except with India, of course.

 

[WillowBrook]

So here's my first 2 turns. I'll play some more tomorrow. Duscussion questions at the end.

preturn
cities investigated and pics posted this morning
gift Stantander, Tromsoe, and Kristansand to Ottomans (the last to ensure they have an airport connected to the capital for trade purposes)
unload troops next to last Kelt city. they have a few cavs there, too.
get some settlers ready for "resettling" some luxes

hope everything is ready to go....

IBT
I go ahead and renew the ROP with Spain.
The Kelts want us to leave. I don't want to declare; hopefully just saying goodbye won't automatically move them. Oh, well "goodbye" apparently means war. That's okay.
the 3 Keltic cavs impale themselves on the top mech inf. formerly Keltic cities riot
Spain declares on us (but after their movement; we get to attack first)

1705
The End of the Kelts
Battle for Eboracum
4/4 MA v. 3/3 rifle => 5/5 MA
5/5 Tank v. 3/3 spear => 5/5 tank
5/5 Tank v. 3/3 spear => 5/5 tank
the Glorious Kelts are gone

Investigate Spanish cities. Oops, can't - we don't have a spy. well, I'm willing to attack rifles blind.
Battle for Zaragoza
4/4 MA v. 3/3 rifle => 3/4 MA
3/4 MA (same) v. 3/3 rifle => 2/3 rifle + retreat
5/5 cav v. 2/3 rifle => 5/5 cav
3/3 mech v. 3/3 longbow => 2/3 mech
3/3 mech v. 3/3 longbow => 3/3 mech
Zaragoza is ours, with another source of uranium

Battle for Valencia
4/4 MA v. 3/3 rifle => 2/3 rifle + retreat
4/4 MA v. 3/3 rifle => 3/5 MA
3/5 MA v. 2/3 rifle => 3/5 MA
some ships sink, and Valencia is ours

Battle for Murcia
(I discover a bunch of cavs in Madrid; they now have a last chance at glory)
3/3 cav v. 4/4 rifle => 3/4 rifle
3/3 cav v. 3/3 rifle => 3/3 rifle + retreat
3/3 cav v. 3/3 rifle => 3/3 rifle + retreat
3/3 cav v. 3/3 rifle => 2/3 rifle + retreat
3/3 cav v. 3/4 rifle => 4/5 rifle
4/4 cav v. 4/5 rifle => 1/5 rifle
4/4 cav v. 2/3 rifle => 3/5 cav
4/4 cav v. 2/2 rifle => 2/3 rifle
4/4 cav v. 2/3 rifle => 3/5 cav
4/4 cav v. 1/5 rifle => 4/4 cav
Murcia is ours (again)
Spain is down to a OCC (I think I'll give them Istanbul/spices when we make peace. No, I'll disband and move it to get all four spices.)

I think it's time to attack the Americans. We're 28 tiles from domination. Gotta be careful.
They have 10 cavs, 27 infantry, 9 tanks, and 7 bombers, among other miscellaneous units. 10 are in former Spain. they go first.

I declare on Abe
units in former Spain gone. We get an elite MA for killing a warrior.
and lose a MA to a cav (both healthy vets)
followed by a MA that takes out 3 cavs!
New Orleans and Houston are easily taken.
We're 5 over the domination limit. Time to abandon some territory.

I put some artillery in range of Indian units.
(aside: Why do we have 45 transports!?!? )

Back to the Americans.
Detroit and Philly fall quickly.

Found Sandes on wool near Entremont, start airport (I don't want to give up the wonders in Entremont)
Found Sarpsborg on wines.

Hmm - 2 tiles from domination. Better abandon a little more territory. Abandon Houston for 6 more tiles.
The American army is down to 4 cavs, 15 infantry, and 5 tanks. I bet there will be a bunch more infantry showing up on the ibt.

IBT
American tanks invade our land! some die, one wins, the rest will die next turn.

1710
abandon Istanbul (bye-bye Great Lighthouse and Colossus), found Tunsberg 1S, start airport

fail to plant spy in Spain

investigate India
Jonk: production switched to cavalry (finish in 8)
Oslo is still full of resistors, 16 turns left on the rifle

verify that the Ottomans now have 3 sources of Aluminum

I note that we're making almost 500 cpt. We don't want to risk hitting 100k (still over 100 turns, but who know how long it'll take the Indians to build their ship), so I start selling off our libraries and universities (at zero research, they aren't doing us any good)

back to America:
capture Chicago
decide to abandon Murcia (and its 20+ tiles)
While attacking Chicago, Canute II appears!
New York (with magellan's voyage) falls

Pause
1. What to do with Canute II???
2. Spain and America aren't speaking with us. (I wonder why? ) But I have 3 lux towns ready to hand off to another civ. The Ottomans already have an aluminum monopoly (well, almost - we of course have our own source). Any thoughts?
3. We can't capture and keep any more American cities unless/until we get rid of some other land (currently 9 tiles form domination). But I'd like to relegate them mostly to the islands. Any objections to razing Washington? We could wait until India gets around to taking more of our land.

 

[I. Larkin]

Just let to know that I am alive.

 

[leif erikson]

Pause
1. What to do with Canute II???

If India ever gets moving, we could get our FP up and running in the new world. While hand building it in Madrid may have been a good idea, I think we should look at what the new world ought to look like and plan for where the FP would be best positioned. I don't have time to figure it out now but I'm thinking in old America somewhere will be best?

2. Spain and America aren't speaking with us. (I wonder why? ) But I have 3 lux towns ready to hand off to another civ. The Ottomans already have an aluminum monopoly (well, almost - we of course have our own source). Any thoughts?

You're doing fine as far as I can see. Spain should talk within the next 3 or 4 turns.

3. We can't capture and keep any more American cities unless/until we get rid of some other land (currently 9 tiles form domination). But I'd like to relegate them mostly to the islands. Any objections to razing Washington? We could wait until India gets around to taking more of our land.

I see no purpose to waiting in order to save American towns. I'm in the raze and replace mode now. Tech is no longer an issue, so we don't need anything from them except as they are useful to helping India.

This is another reason to remain at AW. Whoever tries to settle that land dies until India claims our old area and we have enough overhead under the domination limit to claim old American territory.

To me, the key is to get to a peace sttlement with America and Spain in order to give away Lux cities so India can benefit. So, imho, use your turns at war to set up a peace that delivers what we need. Then, if they settle in American territory, back to war to clean them out.

Just let to know that I am alive.

Hi Ivan, hope you are well!