SGOTM 9 - Xteam

[I. Larkin]

j/k: What do you think about TGL gambit? (very risky):
We build TGL, kill all but 1 weak civ and do not let them any chanses until Mid Mordern era. Then let India capture TGL. Then Let other civ all Techs...
"We should not hesitate to consider gifting cities, jumping palaces, or any number of things like that."
-Yes, but gifting City is tricky...
"- Could someone do a summary of what causes WW? That could be a major pain to deal with, perhaps forcing us out of Republic."
Stay at enemy land, leting enemy on land, loosing Cities by force.
"- How is tech cost affected by the number of civs? That is, is it better to eliminate the other rivals or keep them around? I'm wondering about the situation if we gift the other civs techs, but they don't pass them on to India, and India gets behind."
We need at least 2 AIs+India. Also we must better study mechanics of how AIs trade techs.

 

[leif erikson]

This will be a very strange game.

I vote to keep Leif as captain, and encourage him keep us on the ball.

Thanks Willow.

- How is tech cost affected by the number of civs? That is, is it better to eliminate the other rivals or keep them around? I'm wondering about the situation if we gift the other civs techs, but they don't pass them on to India, and India gets behind.

I've tried to find a reference for this. The principal seems to be that the more civs that you know that have a tech, the cheaper the tech cost will be. Therefore, it seems to me that we should try to keep all the civs alive but barely functioning and gift techs to them. Of course, if we are going to do most of the research anyway, and I think we must, then gifting makes it less expensive for India to obtain from our proxies.

- Could someone do a summary of what causes WW? That could be a major pain to deal with, perhaps forcing us out of Republic.

Try reading this thread and see if it helps your understanding of War Weariness.

- How are we going to keep from getting nuked? Do we destroy every city that starts the Manhatten Project? (Okay, that's a bridge we can cross much later.)

I think the answer is to deny all the civs except India Aluminium. I can't remember but it seems that the spaceship parts do not require uranium, iirc. Deny that to India.

 

[leif erikson]

Double post alert!!

This is an interesting post from the maintenance thread:

As a special concession in view of the unusual challenge of this variant, we've decided to allow the Classic teams to jump their palace with no constraint if the jump occurs because their current capital is captured by the Indians. This is not to be construed as any kind of clue to an appropriate strategic direction. Your guess is undoubtedly better than mine on how to play this game. It simply allows the Classic teams the same freedom in considering their options as the C3C teams.

SGOTM08 is completed and I'm off for bed.....

 

[Capt Buttkick]

j/k: What do you think about TGL gambit? (very risky):
We build TGL, kill all but 1 weak civ and do not let them any chanses until Mid Mordern era. Then let India capture TGL. Then Let other civ all Techs...

Absolutely brilliant. And I love risky strats
I vote we do this. We need to keep India as a 1-city island state for most of the game, they shouldn't be able to get to EDU then.
At the same time, we go all-out with the fast research while keeping adequate military, wipe out the other AIs with knights and cavs and then settle in for 4-turn research until we've discovered all secrets that India need to win by space.

What if we build the Manhattan, but then abandon the city it was built in, can India build nukes then?

 

[I. Larkin]

"Absolutely brilliant. And I love risky strats
I vote we do this. We need to keep India as a 1-city island state for most of the game, they shouldn't be able to get to EDU then.
At the same time, we go all-out with the fast research while keeping adequate military, wipe out the other AIs with knights and cavs and then settle in for 4-turn research until we've discovered all secrets that India need to win by space."
Thanks. We may do calculation and see how much we can research before India get Education.
Note, that "eliminate all" is not that simple at Monarch BTW.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Thanks. We may do calculation and see how much we can research before India get Education.

I'd love to see some numbers on this.

Note, that "eliminate all" is not that simple at Monarch BTW.

"Eliminate all" may not be all that simple, but if the XTeam can do one thing, it's warfare
Also, I don't think we need to eliminate them completely. If we can do 4-turn research, we'd better keep them alive because that should slow down research for India as well.

 

[WillowBrook]

If we can do 4-turn research, we'd better keep them alive because that should slow down research for India as well.

Wouldn't it only slow down research for India if the others are behind India in techs? I've gotten the impression (perhaps mis-impression) that tech cost is less for techs known by other civs if there are more other civs.

Note that mostly conquering the world AND acheiving 4-turn research AND staying at war with India the whole game will be a challenge even without the varient and any other crazy things we decide to do.

But hey, we just conquered the world without boats or flight, so I'm up to try anything.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

What I meant was: if we can contacts away from India and the rest of the world backwards, the Indians (as long as they have few contacts), will be just one civ (us) away from max research rate on every tech. I understand research will be slower then, than if there's only us and India left...
Hope that made it a little clearer

I should shut up now cause I feel responsible for us choosing the wrong path in the last game

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks. We may do calculation and see how much we can research before India get Education.
Note, that "eliminate all" is not that simple at Monarch BTW.

I'm reading with interest.

The only question I have, especially after SGOTM08, is what happens if they do get Education before we're ready? I am having a difficult time understanding how we're going to get well into the Modern Age and have the AI stay in early Middle Ages.

In addition, in order for India to quickly build the necessary Spaceship components, won't they need at least 8 to 10 very well developed cities with factories and other production enhancement improvements?

 

[I. Larkin]

What we have to find out soon is there some "hole" in proposed plan.
The main advantage of it that all at our control for a while...

 

[I. Larkin]

I'm reading with interest.

The only question I have, especially after SGOTM08, is what happens if they do get Education before we're ready? I am having a difficult time understanding how we're going to get well into the Modern Age and have the AI stay in early Middle Ages.

In addition, in order for India to quickly build the necessary Spaceship components, won't they need at least 8 to 10 very well developed cities with factories and other production enhancement improvements?

We will observe India research. If they get Theology we will let him TGL and than continue "original plan" (if we have it already).

 

[leif erikson]

We will observe India research. If they get Theology we will let him TGL and than continue "original plan" (if we have it already).

Sorry but I can be a bit dense.

I'd like to try and tie this thing up a little bit. We are going to start expansion as normal, filling in the area we can as quickly as possible. Inital research goal is Literature, up the Alphabet leg. Our secondary goal is to build The Great Library. while doing this, we want to prevent India from gaining contacts with the other civs as much as possible, keep them isolated. Our opening strategy is a builder strategy then, a research machine filled with Libraries and Marketplaces?

Once we have opened and have filled in our area, we then need to begin a phase of war to reduce the size and capabilities of the AI civs. Should India build settlements off their island, we are to take them? Once we have crippled the AI Civs ability to research, we will have control and can then decide who to allow to live and who goes to history's dustbin. We ty to maintain a 4-turn research pace through some point when we'll ave to let India expand so they can build enough cities and get them operating to build spaceship parts.

Is this a concept/outline that you can accept? Of course, there will be adjustments and modifications along the way which will be needed. I only wish to get an overall picture of your proposal.

 

[WillowBrook]

I'm not sure how reasonable it is to think we can limit the AI contact with India. If we were playing conquests, perhaps (e.g., if a civ met them, perhaps we could take them out before they could reach PP and trade the contact). But I have my doubts about keeping them completely isolated.

For the beginning, however, peaceful expansion and a beeline to literature (for libraries and maybe TGL) seems in order. Knowledge of the world with MM will help. If we have neighbors on our continent, they should be reduced to one city or eliminated ASAP.

We can at least get through the first 30 turns or so before having to make major strategic decisions.

Note: I will not have internet access again until tomorrow evening at the earliest. Feel free to decide who will start, and take the first turns.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

It's the weekend and my PC is back up so I'm ready to play, but I started the last one...
I may go second if someone else will start us off?

 

[leif erikson]

I hope you don't mind, but I would like to give Gator a chance to read the posts and provide any points for discussion before we get the game moving.

As soon as I can throw my son off of my computer, I will download the save and see who we are facing for AI civs. Then we can have a final discussion regarding tech decisions and direction. I also wanted to verify the save as some of the PTW teams found more opponents than were listed in the game summary.

I was going to suggest that Gator start this time, unless there are objections, of course.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm not sure how reasonable it is to think we can limit the AI contact with India. If we were playing conquests, perhaps (e.g., if a civ met them, perhaps we could take them out before they could reach PP and trade the contact). But I have my doubts about keeping them completely isolated.

I agree but we were focused on trading contacts earlier in the discussion and so I just wanted to raise the issue and see where we are?

For the beginning, however, peaceful expansion and a beeline to literature (for libraries and maybe TGL) seems in order. Knowledge of the world with MM will help. If we have neighbors on our continent, they should be reduced to one city or eliminated ASAP.

I'm thinking that we shouldn't be too hasty about eliminating our rivals. Until we *know* we have no use for them, we shouldn't destroy them. Once gone, we certainly can't bring them back!!

 

[leif erikson]

Oh No!! An early triple post.

Pulled the save up for a moment and we have 7 opponents:
India, of course.
The Mongols.
The Carthaginians (neoCarthage)
The Ottomns (sipahi!)
The Kelts (Keltoi)
The Americans (role reversal?)
The Spanish

 

[I. Larkin]

"I'd like to try and tie this thing up a little bit. We are going to start expansion as normal, filling in the area we can as quickly as possible. Inital research goal is Literature, up the Alphabet leg. Our secondary goal is to build The Great Library. while doing this, we want to prevent India from gaining contacts with the other civs as much as possible, keep them isolated. Our opening strategy is a builder strategy then, a research machine filled with Libraries and Marketplaces?"
We are not have to make decision right now. When we meet somebody and will know better map we will understand our chanses to keep everebody at early Mid Age until our Mordern age. Anyhow to build TGL is not a big deal.
Probably, however, better to ask somebody else to build it for us. And capture it, of cource. However, better to have it close to India. Marketplace will be important at late stage of the game.

 

[DJMGator13]

I'm back and would love to start us off.

I like Ivan's plan using TGL. We only need to keep India small, not necessarily at one city. At Monarch level a less then 5 city Indian empire may well still be in the AA or early MA if we freely gift our techs to all other cities. This would leave India with nothing of value to trade.

I made some other notes while daydreaming through some of the dry boring lectures but they are currently packed away. Most of them hinged on making India a larger empire in the game.

As for tech costs, Control Freak had a link in the GOTM48 2nd Spoiler to a previous thread on tech costs. Here is the link to Control Freaks post that shows the formula. Here's a link to the original thread about this formula.

I think this reinforces Ivan's TGL strategy. That we only need to keep India and one other Civ alive besides us. So we may not need to be completely peaceful.

 

[DJMGator13]

Double post (making up for lost time )

I see that the Ottos are the only scientific civ in the game so we should keep them around for their free age change tech. If we keep them without horses and saltpeter we won't need to worry about there UU. Good thing about age change techs is they only need 1 city to receive the tech.

BTW, I can play tonight.