SGOTM3 Rome - Team akots

Heya -
Since it looks like you guys didn't object too strenuously to my taking Sam's place, I wanted to make a few observations about our situation.
1. We are surrounded and our opponents have better Attack units than we do.
2. We still have peace with 3 opponents (When is our next required Declaration, and who?)
3. Our Forbidden palace is nicely set for an eventual palace jump.
4. We don't have fast units.

Given these observations I have some ideas of strategies to use to put the AI where it belongs.
1. I think a major priority should be to make sure that Greece is not a threat. There are a couple ways to go about this.
a. Kill them. I'm not sure how viable this is in the short term.
b. We have several armies. If we can take two of them out of the fight, we can use them to pillage Greece's resources so we don't have to face Greek Knights. Once that is the case, we can build Horsemen and use them to take out the Greek Longbowmen that will follow. Also they will be availiable for upgrade when we get Chivalry.
c. I think you already know this, but chivalry would be my highest priority tech now.
2. I additionally like the idea of pillaging to make remove our opponent's ability to build the good attackers.
As a note in this version of GOTM (I played it way back), Armies cannot pillage. If we send a Horseman with the Pilaging army, we can use the horse to pillage and move, keeping it covered with the army, I would suggest horses as the highest priority, since we can't see where the saltpeter is yet.

3. I would jump the palace north sooner rather than later. With the amount of war we are fighting, we should continue to get leaders, so we can keep moving the palace to keep it near our combat zone. This will allow us to produce units at the front rather than having to move them. The original core can produce the settlers we need to fill in the razed territory.

4. As the current legion builds complete, I would suggest starting some horsemen. They would be good cleanup units now, and in the near future could become knights, which are probably the unit we will be using for a long time.
I would also suggest a supply of catapults so we can increase our kill ratio.

I know that akots was against artillery, but I think they would help. I will go with the team decision on this, so won't build artillery unless others agree with me.

Questions, comments, flames?
 
OK, jeffelammar is in and Samildanach is out. The uploads page has been amended.
 
Sounds good, jeffelammar. Remember, though, this is PtW -- Armies still suck at pillaging.
 
A couple things.
I have never played C3C, so I am not used to the super armies that exist there.
I played GOTM 16, which is the basis for this SGOTM, and there are a couple observations to make.
1. Armies have been modded so they can't pillage. I opened up Sam's last save to look around and verified that this is true. That is why I suggested the Army as coverage for a horseman pillager.
2. Since there were some questions along these line earlier in the thread, There are no Medieval infantry in this mod.

One last note. Please don't take my suggestions wrong. They are just my first thoughts when I look at the current strategic situation.
 
We just cannot jump Palace onto a border line city. This is against the rules. The Palace has to be surrounded by at least 4-5 cities. Otherwise, we might need some arty is upkeep costs permit. :)
 
Ok, I will do a preturn check, then ask for opinions and direction before proceeding; can't waste these turns.

I believe I'm pretty good at managing terrain and position for combat benefit, but need to determine a direction (I think we need to take someone out; can't just keep fighting on all fronts). I also am not that great at determining builds, so recommendations about what to prioritize and what to ignore would be good.

Can we palace hop? What are the rules involving that (and where would we, if we could)?

We just declared on Japan, so we have about 20 turns before needing to declare again.

Ok, Preflight:

Lots of units (knights and otherwise) in our territory; I'll definately be attacking some before hitting go. Our biggest threat is babylon, with 4 knights in good shape in our territory, America and England also have a strong knight presence. Greece isn't looking strong; I don't like them on our flank, but we don't have the strength to devote an all-out war against them at this time.

Sams does have a good concern; our eastern cities are very weak -- we do not have the units to cover them. With some fancy footwork I should be able to defend, and hurry walls so that we have better coverage at those locations. We are short on units in general, but builds are coming up.

We need to build our cities on hills if possible; Nico would be in much better situation if that were the case.

It'll be tough to get an army out of the east; we are pretty hard pressed there, but it's possible if we want to do that. Talk amongst yourselves and give me direction :)
 
My $.02

I agree that we need to take somebody out. Either Greece or France.

I vote for Greece for 3 main reasons
1. They have Knights, and we want to stop that.
2. France does not appear to have horses in their territory, so they will be building mostly Musketeers as attack units. These are less threatening than Greece's knights.
3. Getting rid of Greece will consolidate our front line so all real fighting is in the north.

I also noticed that we have a couple legions and a few spears in cities that are not in any immediate danger. I would suggest leaving 1 or 2 legions in the area to react to any amphibious assault, and then bringing the rest of those units up to the front.

Good luck Jhigham.
 
Going for Greece seems very reasonable. They also have 2 luxuries. However, route to Athens from our core is all mountains. And this means we need to dispatch decent force which would be essentially inactive for a number of turns while moving there. So, we better try to crack them from the north.

Try not to let the AI units deep inside our territory. Bait them if needed with undefended cities. Just move the troops out and then move in when the danger comes.

Palace jump rules are exactly as in GOTM. We can jump with a leader but to some place surrounded on all sides with at least 4-5 cities.

IMO, increase the luxury rate if needed because these units are left mostly for MP purposes apparenty. And try to upgrade spears to pikes while moving.

I'll try to keep that army in the eastern front.

Noticed that many cities need hard micromanagement to optimizhe for builds. For legions, horses, and pikes the cities should be at 5 or 6 shields. And we need more workers!

The game requires some consolidation of the cities and units on the border. This might be hard to achieve. Just hang on for 10 turns and try not to lose the cities and roads which is also very important. :)

France is pretty much gassed as well as Greece. Taking them over is a matter of time which is not on our side btw. Certainly, Babylon, Germany, and America are in better shape. Well, little we can do about that. :sad:

Kill ratio might improve with catapults to a certain extent but they are more effective in C3C. In PTW, it all starts with artillery which is very far away. Really, don't know.

Pillaging is an option but only for Greece and France, not other AIs, they are just too far away.
 
670 AD (Was saved at the start of the turn):

Killed a Greek knight and longbow, and german pike sitting on our road. Lost Legion to english spear, and 2 legion to american musket deep in our territory.

Moved pikes to cover our wine, musket has nowhere to go. Started moving units to mobilize against Greece. Sent army against Bab knight, who retreated. Changed several builds, optimized for legions and gained 2g/t. Upgraded a lot of spears; interior first so I left a spear un upgraded on the front :-( Couldn't trade for the extra 7 gold, and barracks only give us 2 gold.

Lots of units on the western front and not much to attack with. Against knights I think in most cases we are better off defending; attack of 4 against fortified/walls/hill better than defense of 3...tell me if I'm wrong. One army at 2/9 will try to move towards the eastern front, but we might need the firepower. Armies heal to slow.

680 AD: IBT German knights retreat rather than attack! Very good news. Greek hoplight moves deep into our territory; no combat. One city goes into disorder; I meant to fix it after the fact and forgot :-(

Jerusalem builds walls and starts on barracks, Palmyra builds barracks and starts on legion. Byzantium builds a cat for us; I think that it'll be important on the eastern front as musket start coming into play.

Upgrade more spears, fix attitudes in a few cities. I don't want to increase lux yet because we really need the gold for upgrades. Kill a french spear and longbow, and the american musket. Kill a greek knight (takes two units) and cover with pike. Kill the hoplite.

690 AD: IBT our 3/18 army barely defeats french bow. I wish you had better control over which units defend. Lose a pike and legion to the greeks; I exposed them :-/ Several more legions come online. Kill a greek bow, rearrange units. Work on builds a little bit, some upgrades from spear.

Kill greek knight, and greek hoplite (losing 2 legion :-/). English landed a longbow quickly dispatched. Kill American knight, fortify army nearby. Kill english musket.

700 AD

**** **** **** ****. Left brunsidium undefended, but overlooked the english knight within range. Burnt to the ground. Killed the knight. Settler in jerusalem comes down to resettle (bruns was only size 1, but lost barracks)

Army damn near dies killing english knight, and legion loses to longbow, dealing only 1 pt of damage. Not my turn for combat, another army loses 9hp attacking a knight, and is now exposed.

720 AD: IBT the RNG makes up for the previous combat; exposed pike in several locations win (3-4). One kills american knight without losing an HP. Another forces two German knights to retreat (with only 1HP loss) before losing to bab Knight. Armies intact. English knight moves into position to attack caesarea, and I cannot reach it in time to defend (spear in place).

730 AD: IBT Iroquios(sp?) ally with Americans vs us. Aztecs and Japanese start on Smith's. Spear holds off first knight, but 2nd one takes ceaser; size 2 though so hopefully I can take it back. Legion fends off Bab knight. Hmm, ceaser lost a pop point when captured? Better to take it though, than leave it in english hands -- hmm it lives even with 0 culture and size one. Maybe because it was mine originally? I'll take it.

Artaxa founded to replace Brund. Kill a bunch of knights left in the open, take out three russian longbow. Lotsa kills and a nice RNG. Moving more units to prepare to take on Greece; Army still hasn't been able to move that direction.

Again almost lose an army to a knight (on hill, but not fortified), and do lose a legion...it's a rough life.

Founded Selucia in the southeast at some point in the past; just discovered this note beneath my insert cursor :)

740 AD: IBT Japan starts on Magellan's. Pike on hill loses to knight, only inflicts 1 damage. Bab land knight amphib in the middle of our empire, but have legion nearby ... unbelievable. Knight defeats two legion before being taken (open ground).

Take out some greek longbow, move some legions around. Elite legion loses 3HP to a german longbow but takes it.

750 AD: IBT Greece lands a knight on our shores near where the babs did, defeated by a single legion this time. Two dead english units, longbow almost defeats legion yet again.

760 AD: IBT lose a pike to english, defeat a greek knight. Units move inward, lots of production. Elite legion loses to longbow, and next one is redlined before winning. Cover my units fairly well, full army now headed towards greece with several legions tagging along.

Things to note:

Oxford is a thorn in our side, we may want to wipe it out. Lots of units from that direction, but england might send them that route anyway.

We are weak to the southeast; legion lost to a longbow, but at 2hp I have to hope our pike can take it. Bonn and Dover should go, though, since they tie up a lot of our units.

I've fortified several units near Jerusalem in hopes of defending the territory; or at least making it hard to take. Knights on those mountains suck; if we don't take them out they'll land right on that flood plain and snap our line of transportation.

You should be able to raise luxury now; we don't have many units to upgrade. Not much MP presence, but it'll release some of the entertainers.

We need artillery; currently only building in one location, but they have a good hit potential against units (not against cities) and bringing knights down a notch or two is a big help.

Good luck.
 
Huh. Upload worked for one turn, now didn't again. My brain is mush though so I might be doing something wrong.
 
Looks good Jhigham.

Downloaded it before leaving for work this morning, but didn't have time to load it and look.

I'll be playing tonight at about 8pm Mountain time (GMT -7:00)

If you have any suggestions based on the current situation (Besides Jhigham's good suggestions), then please post today.

One thing I would like to discuss is research. IMO we need to get Chivalry ASAP. Since we can't get gpt deals, we either need to save up enough cash to buy the techs, or we need to start doing our own research. I like the idea of trying to buy Monotheism and Chivalry. We will need to start our own research soon, because we are not far from AW.

Just to be sure, The Iroquois war is new, so I think we don't have a DOW till 20 turns after they declared on us. Is that right?
 
No, this is wrong. We still have to declare.

The turns look good. May be we did not expand much but survived and did not lose any ground.

Certainly, some research is required once we get into AW mode. For research, we need some free income apart from what we have since that is pathetic. Either connecting luxuries or building more cities or combination of both might be good.

And we can always buy techs for gtp, just have to renegotiate peace.
 
Sorry for all the questions. Just want to make sure I don't mess up your game :)

I went back and looked. Our last DOW was 600AD Vrs Japan. That means that our next one is in 800 vrs India. (I couldn't find any mention of the Aztecs earlier than when we contacted india)

Is my analysis correct? Sorry to be so slow, but as I said I don't want to blow it :)
 
Quick Update.
It is 800 AD. I am waiting to make sure that I have to declare on India, so will wait to finish up for a bit.
The Good News. We just got Monotheism from India
The Bad News. On the 760-770 IBT, we were attacked by English Cavalry. I haven't seen any other Cavalry, but it is only a matter of time. We do seem to be holding our own.

If I don't hear about the war thing before tomorrow, I will declare on India and finish my 10 turns.
 
Eeeeeeekkkkk.

That is definately some of the most skin of the teeth set of turns I have done in a while.

Ok I'll start with a quick summary.
The Good.
1. I got us Monotheism
2. I Raized Sparta

The Bad.
1. As mentioned, England has Cavalry (I haven't seen them from anyone else)
2. German and American Knights are overwhelming our defenses.
3. I lost more legions than I wanted, but don't know what I could have done better.

760 Pre-flight
Artaxata -> Catapult
Rome -> Horseman

IBT Kill 1 German LB, Lose 1 pike to German knight (they get a leader)
English CAVALRY kills Pike in Caesaria

770 - Kill Several English Troops
Rush wall in caesaria

IBT - Lost our galley. He wouldn't have found much more anyway
- Kill 1 german knight, lose a pike and a legion to english troops

780
Wall in Caesaria -> Rax
Legion drives cavarly to retreat
kill 2 german knights, 1 Bab Pike, 1 French LB, lose 1 legion
Syracuse -> Settler

IBT - Kill Greek LB, Lose 3 legions :(

790 - Lose 3 legions (2 to american knights, 1 to a longbow(ARGH))
- Kill Russian Knight, Greek LB, Babylonian Knight

IBT - Lose Worker to Am knight
Lose Legion to Greek knight
Pisae Forum - Horse
Nicomedia Rax -> Pike

800 - Kill Babylonian Knight, American Knight, German Knight
Buy Monotheism for 260 Gold + WM from india
Declare War on India

IBT - Kill 1 knight, cause 3 to retreat
America lands troops near Antium

810 - Kill 4 knight, musketeer, spear and pike but the pike takes our army from 13 to 5. It can't be covered. Crap, I really blew that one.

IBT - yep Germany kills the army

820 - Kill Musketeer, Am Knight, From here on out I got too wrapped up in juggling units.

IBT Lost 2 legions to England (1 knight, one cav)
Got Defensive leader. Will create army, but did not get to fill it

830 - I'm starting to be over-run I am really scraping the barrel to get enough units to stop the enemy landings and encroachment in the north

IBT - Japanese land 2 Samurai and a Swordsman. Near Antium

840 - Try to clean up. The Samurai knock out a couple legions, and I decide to defend instead of attack them. Found City in ruined area east.

IBT - 3 hp Knight kills fortified elite Legion guarding new city. Crap. City is razed. So much for that ploy. Americans land 1 cavalry by antium

850 - First good news in a while. I successfully raze Sparta. Only lost 1 legion to do it. Execute 2 greek workers. Note: Sparta was only defended by Hoplites, but I have seen greek musketeers. They are probably trading for Saltpeter.

IBT - DISASTER STRIKES - Crap a combo of the sustained pressure and some bad RNG causes the following cities to be captured. Selucia, Pisae, Gonzo.

860 - I retake Pisae and Gonzo. May even be able to hold them. I left a couple troops to move as I really needed to go to bed.

Thing could have gone a lot better. I don't know our best bet right now, but the big thing seems to be stabilizing our borders. Sorry I failed at that.

The next thing to say is that there is a settler being built in the south, you may want to switch it to a combat unit.

At this point, I'm not sure what I should have done better, I was able to red line and kill a lot of enemy troops with the catapults.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/akots_SG003_AD0860_01.SAV
 
Got it, I'll see what can be done.

Must admit after looking at the game that Sam's hat would prbably remain intact.

I'll take a closer look at all saves after my turns and will try to diagnose what has been done wrong. But looking at the current save I can see 2 cities in disorder with clowns. There are 6 extra clowns which would be earning 6gpt for our treasury. Don't know for how many turns they were sitting there. Also, very many cities are not optimized. For example, Rome is running at 12 spt which absolutely makes no sense. At least 4 tiles in the RCP 3 cities are not worked. The question is did this really contribute to what we got and how to deal with that. Cavalry looks scary though and knights are moving in from everywhere. Hope we can defend with artillery but it does not look good.

And where the crap is market in Ravenna? I remember rushing it with a leader but don't remeber anybody reporting that the city has been captured...
 
Guys, if we are not going to look at each city each turn and optimize them, this game cannot be won. It is apparently beyond saving in its current shape. This is a time-consuming task, that is why we play Succession Game. It appears that the game has been played akin to a single-player game and this is not acceptable. You can screw a bit, then the next player comes and fixes a bit. But if you screw a lot of things, at a certain point it becomes unfixable.

I can understand Sam now completely. It just feels wrong like wasting time. There are certain issues that even a strong player cannot correct. :)

If you don't know what to do, we better discuss. If we think we know but are doing this in a wrong way, we must learn. I'll study the files and post some comments.
 
akots said:
I can understand Sam now completely. It just feels wrong like wasting time. There are certain issues that even a strong player cannot correct. :)

I'm sorry to hear that. My poor play is big part of why this game is so bleak. I had hoped that by withdrawing it would cause the team to pull together much in the same way as when High Desert withdrew from roster C. On that occassion it seemed to raise the the remaining team members focus. That game had been drifting for a while ,like this game, once HD pulled out it seemed to shock players into more focused and determined play.
 
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