When I brought the galley along India's west coast, I thought I noticed the concentration of Indian units in the south lessen. But maybe that was just coincidence, or maybe I was just seeing what I wanted to see. So I have no idea, really.Khan said:
SGOTM7 - Team Chunky
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
Khan_Asparuh
Just a Bulgarian Eddie
I don't mind delaying the invasion for a few turns or a whole turnset while we build 6-7 more galleys, we'll use them well. In this game they are a major factor. A few pikes won't hurt too. Dramatic loses must be avoided...
BTW, we have more cats/trebs than we need, I wouldn't build any for some time.
BTW, we have more cats/trebs than we need, I wouldn't build any for some time.
chunkymonkey
Procrastinator
Good discussion guys.
Quite frankly, implementing any of these strategies is going to scare the living crap out of me - so, how to minimise wetness...
pikes sent up to northern mountain definitely would be safer - however there is no room for pulling these troops back and it takes longer to implement hence jumbos, which i don't like. however, the fact it takes longer to implement means we may have guns, and the fact i can leave more of the work to Khan or Baal
the whole invasion force lumped in one spot will repel a lot of attackers that we can see from here - unless there are lots hiding in cities. The only fast units are the AC. we can pull these troops back and heal them easily and we can get reinforcements every turn - which is good. odds are definitely against us on the terrain and we may lose a lot of units, however if take Karachi on the first turn we are as good as sorted.
what about the possibility of putting down a fort/barricade once Karachi is razed rather than a town? - provides 100% defence quickly. not sure - town or fort?.
i'm not playing until tomorrow - i'll think some more over the next few hours.
Quite frankly, implementing any of these strategies is going to scare the living crap out of me - so, how to minimise wetness...
pikes sent up to northern mountain definitely would be safer - however there is no room for pulling these troops back and it takes longer to implement hence jumbos, which i don't like. however, the fact it takes longer to implement means we may have guns, and the fact i can leave more of the work to Khan or Baal
the whole invasion force lumped in one spot will repel a lot of attackers that we can see from here - unless there are lots hiding in cities. The only fast units are the AC. we can pull these troops back and heal them easily and we can get reinforcements every turn - which is good. odds are definitely against us on the terrain and we may lose a lot of units, however if take Karachi on the first turn we are as good as sorted.
what about the possibility of putting down a fort/barricade once Karachi is razed rather than a town? - provides 100% defence quickly. not sure - town or fort?.
i'm not playing until tomorrow - i'll think some more over the next few hours.
We do have too many cats; many of them are scattered around Zululand doing nothing. We should amend that. Meanwhile, I would continue building trebs in corrupt Zululand -- we can always disband cats for some useful shields if we have too many. (For instance, we can get walls in a new Indian city faster if we use a cat as seed shields, rather than the customary waiting a turn before rushing...)
The thing about fort/barricade is it'll take a few turns to build, and it'll have to be in our cultural bounds so we can heal. Does Aydin have any culture? Also if we get a leader, we won't be able to build an army over there if we don't have a city. An army in India would be invaluable.
I don't know that muskets are all that great -- for double the shields, you get one more def point. I think I'd rather have two pikes...
The thing about fort/barricade is it'll take a few turns to build, and it'll have to be in our cultural bounds so we can heal. Does Aydin have any culture? Also if we get a leader, we won't be able to build an army over there if we don't have a city. An army in India would be invaluable.
I don't know that muskets are all that great -- for double the shields, you get one more def point. I think I'd rather have two pikes...
chunkymonkey
Procrastinator
I thought Aydin had culture, but I may be wrong. I'll check later.
You're right about the muskets of course. In this case should we hold off researching guns until we have a large stack of pikes - possibly until we're convinced of victory in India? Or should we research it anyway and plod on towards Sipahi and just stick with the pikes we have? A few muskets would be nice to deal with the inevitable elephants.
You're right about the muskets of course. In this case should we hold off researching guns until we have a large stack of pikes - possibly until we're convinced of victory in India? Or should we research it anyway and plod on towards Sipahi and just stick with the pikes we have? A few muskets would be nice to deal with the inevitable elephants.
Turning down research for a bit is no big deal, we could totally do that. Whatever gold we build up can back into research later via a deficit, as long as we don't spend it. Since we have more libs than markets we'll lose a few gpt by turning down research, but not much. So delaying to build pikes won't slow our march to sipahi at all, or at most it'll delay them 1 turn.
If we decide to go with a Massive Northern Diversionary Landing, then certainly let's delay guns to build more pikes. It sounds like we're leaning in this direction. If we go to land 10 pikes in the north, how many more pikes and galleys will we want? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking 7 more pikes and 4 more galleys. That'll give a southern landing party of 6 pikes, 3 trebs, 10 offensive units, and a settler; and it'll take about 10 more turns to build and position, allowing the current knight builds to finish.
This game is getting really overwhelming! It's hard to keep track of all this stuff...
If the ai's hadn't landed 7 troops on my turn 9, I would totally have landed 24 troops myself. So it's a good thing that happened...
If we decide to go with a Massive Northern Diversionary Landing, then certainly let's delay guns to build more pikes. It sounds like we're leaning in this direction. If we go to land 10 pikes in the north, how many more pikes and galleys will we want? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking 7 more pikes and 4 more galleys. That'll give a southern landing party of 6 pikes, 3 trebs, 10 offensive units, and a settler; and it'll take about 10 more turns to build and position, allowing the current knight builds to finish.
This game is getting really overwhelming! It's hard to keep track of all this stuff...
If the ai's hadn't landed 7 troops on my turn 9, I would totally have landed 24 troops myself. So it's a good thing that happened...
chunkymonkey
Procrastinator
Ok, I'm half way through. Bad news is, I'm having a rough time with the RNG. Good news is, on the third turn, I got a leader! I brought him back to the mainland and constructed an army there, but didn't fill it. I started building the Pentagon in Istanbul (23 turns). Great, I thought. We can land the empty army with the southern invasion force after the Diversionary forces have done their bit with the Indian cavalry. Then we can fill it up and away we go.
Then before I'd even finished contemplating the prospects of us marching into Delhi within the next 15-20 turns, another leader pops up on the mainland!
Now, the question is... What to do with him?
There are three sensible options i can see.
1. Rush the Pentagon.
2. Create another empty army and ship it over with either the Northern landing, or the Southern landing. Two knight armies should make short work of the Indian cities.
3. Create another army for homeland defence.
So what to do? I'll wait for a response from each of you before playing on. I was going to stop half way through anyway and play the rest tomorrow night (these turns are taking forever...) so it seems like as good a point as any to stop.
By the way, at the moment, the Indians never finish a turn without a unit stationed on the iron. I'm not sure if this will change at all...
Then before I'd even finished contemplating the prospects of us marching into Delhi within the next 15-20 turns, another leader pops up on the mainland!
Now, the question is... What to do with him?There are three sensible options i can see.
1. Rush the Pentagon.
2. Create another empty army and ship it over with either the Northern landing, or the Southern landing. Two knight armies should make short work of the Indian cities.
3. Create another army for homeland defence.
So what to do? I'll wait for a response from each of you before playing on. I was going to stop half way through anyway and play the rest tomorrow night (these turns are taking forever...) so it seems like as good a point as any to stop.
By the way, at the moment, the Indians never finish a turn without a unit stationed on the iron. I'm not sure if this will change at all...
Dude, you're scaring me. Having losses?Chunky said:
Anyway, 2 new leaders, woohoo!
It's difficult to answer your question without seeing the situation. Do you think we'll have enough offensive units for an invasion plus leaving enough home for defense? I remember having doubts about that, which is why I left all our core on knights at the end of my turns. Personally, I don't think it's worth 400s to just so we can add another knight into our armies; our 3-knight armies are doing just fine, I'd rather have the new units. So I think my advice goes like this...
1.) Don't build the pentagon. Build a homeland defense army with the new leader. We can rush the pentagon with a future leader. I'd really like another army at home right now, especially if you're having RNG problems.
2.) But if you must have the pentagon, then use this new leader to rush it. Get Istanbul back on units.
Um, that's my piece. Good luck!
Hello friends I' m back at last. Sorry about losing my contact but I got some PC problems.
Everything looks great as far as I see. I need about 2 days to settle down and to look at the game. So you can skip me or wait for a few more days. It' s up to you.
Sorry about losing my contact but I got some PC problems.Everything looks great as far as I see. I need about 2 days to settle down and to look at the game. So you can skip me or wait for a few more days. It' s up to you.
Khan_Asparuh
Just a Bulgarian Eddie
Hi guys, I was fearing that the iron will be protected.
Nice however, 2 leaders. I don't mind rushing the pentagon, it is worth IMO. a forth army is not needed immediatly, and we'll get some chances to pop another leader when we push against India.
I'll need to check the save, but I still think we need a diversion on any tile giving us natural protection - hill, forest, whatever. I fear the number of indian units.
This must allow us to get a city on the island, after what it'll be a lot easier.
Nice however, 2 leaders. I don't mind rushing the pentagon, it is worth IMO. a forth army is not needed immediatly, and we'll get some chances to pop another leader when we push against India.
I'll need to check the save, but I still think we need a diversion on any tile giving us natural protection - hill, forest, whatever. I fear the number of indian units.
This must allow us to get a city on the island, after what it'll be a lot easier.
Khan_Asparuh
Just a Bulgarian Eddie
Chunky, do you think you'll have time to post the spoiler?
Welcome back Baal, and dont limit yourself only on drinking, eating and sleeping, only the ladies can pull a CivFanatic away from this forum for more than 3 days, you know what I mean
EDIT: Am I dreaming or can there be a hill east of Lahore? Can some fog-gazing reveal this? I'd really like a diversion landing...
Welcome back Baal, and dont limit yourself only on drinking, eating and sleeping, only the ladies can pull a CivFanatic away from this forum for more than 3 days, you know what I mean
EDIT: Am I dreaming or can there be a hill east of Lahore? Can some fog-gazing reveal this? I'd really like a diversion landing...
Could be; I don't see nuttin', but I'm no fog gazer...Khan said:
Maybe it's a bit too early for this suggestion, but what the heck: maybe we should go to 5 turn sets soon? My last turns took over 4 hours (not counting all the time I spent thinking about it), and still I felt like I rushed them. It's been what, 5 days since I played, and chunky is still finishing up. So maybe it's time to turn down the heat a bit, after Baal's turn maybe. (I wouldn't want to chip into your share of the turns, Baal, we already skipped you once...
)
Khan_Asparuh
Just a Bulgarian Eddie
I agree on 5 turns each, Mach, if we aren't too late in the général advancement scheme.
Or every player chooses the number of turns he plays, between 5 and 10, depending of his freetime.
Or every player chooses the number of turns he plays, between 5 and 10, depending of his freetime.
chunkymonkey
Procrastinator
0 - 650AD - Move elite troops and army out of cities that ar flip-risky. Just in case. Change a lot of treb builds to settlers and galleys. Move out 5 galleys, and start shifting some cats from Zululand towards Indian strait to assist pikes. Pillage horses by Isandlwhana. The last thing I want is for that to flip and Indians have access to horses.
IBT - Lots of Indians move around. They land two AC. Sinop galley -> galley. Kafa court -> galley.
1 - 660AD - Bomb AC, then kill with two elite MI. 2-0
IBT - Americans land 2 MI, musket, longbow. Persia lands 3 knights and immortal. Bursa knight -> galley. Edirne knight -> knight. Izmit knight -> pike. Mugla harbor -> galley.
2 - 670AD - Bomb them, and kill them all but have very poor RNG streak, losing 2 elite MI and a knight
. However... we get a leader!!! Transport Selim back to the mainland. He will build an army, but will not be loaded until we land by Karachi. Turn down science to zero. We still get guns in 8 via scientists. 11-3
IBT - Istanbul knight -> knight. Aydin knight -> pike.
3 - 680AD - Construct the army on the mainland and start building the Pentagon in Istanbul. Sink a Viking Caravel, but lose a galley to it.. 12-4
IBT - Vikings sail up another caravel. Indians land two swords. Persians want to talk. Nah... Bursa pike -> pike. Ankara galley -> pike.
4 - 690AD - Elites kill the swords. 14-4
IBT - Indian galley sinks one of ours. Americans land knight and musket. Vikings land musket, MI, crusader. Urfa galley -> galley. Uskudar settler -> settler. Denizili galley -> galley. 14-5
5 - 700AD - So... we kill them all... and get a second leader!
19-5. Change Istanbul back to knight production and rush Pentagon in Uskudar, only inland city with zero binned shields.
IBT - Some shifting. Americans land musket, longbow, 2 MI. Bursa pike -> pike. Uskudar Pentagon -> settler. Izmit pike -> knight. Aydin pike -> pike. Persepolis builds Smith's TC. Indians now have Chivalry. They leave iron unguarded... too bad I am 3 turns away.
6 - 710AD - Kill the intruders. 23-5
IBT - Istanbul knight -> knight. Edirne knight -> knight.
7 - 720AD - Position the guys for iron landing.
IBT - Damn, the Indians leave a spear on the iron. Bursa pike -> pike. Iznik knight -> knight. Sinop galley -> galley. Bolu lib -> galley. Kirklareil galley-> galley.
8 - 730AD - Bomb indian galley, but our galley still loses. Found Iskendurun -> lib. Found Tunceli -> galley. 23-6
IBT - Intombe galley -> galley. Aydin pike -> pike. Konya knight -> knight. Kafa galley -> galley. Ankara pike -> pike. Mugla galley -> galley. Trondheim builds Magellan's.
9 - 740AD - Indians are still sittin on that tile. I'm not sure what to do.
IBT - Bursa pike -> pike. Urfa galley _> galley.
10 - 750AD - Send a couple of galleys round west of India to see if there are any decent landing spots.
Gunpowder is in 2, tho this can be brought forward to next turn, or delayed through management of scientists. We have 456g (+41gpt).
There is currently a clear spot S of Karachi... I can currently see 5 offensive Indian units that could reach that tile. Not counting possibles in Karachi, or any cavalry that are scattered. I say we just send in our strike force now. The longer we leave it, the more fortress like India will become. They are not leaving that iron spot, now that we are parked nearby. In and surrounding Aydin we have 5 galleys, 1 empty army, 9 pikes, 7 MI, 9 knights, 2 settlers.
If I was playing this on, I would take the army, 6 knights, settler, 8 pikes (as fodder), 4 MI, and land them now. I estimate 3-4 pikes will be lost in the interturn. We should then be able to take Karachi with a 16hp knight army next turn. Stick a city down, either in Karachi or on the south tile (i would prefer the extra culture tile outside this beach town to trap 1mp units), transport over a bunch of cats, rush some walls, and away we go. Indians have just learned Chivalry, so we should expect a slow trickle of jumbos and AC to defend against, but we can pick off the MI and swords as long as they get trapped within our culture.
But one of our galleys is able to see east of Lahore next turn, so we can wait and see if there is a hill there. If this is preferred, hows about we whack research up to 1 turn, get guns and upgrade some of our pikes to muskets?
The time is upon us, methinks. Oh yeah, and America has just entered the IA, so it won't be long before we see rifles landing on our shores. I'd really like to finish India before this happens.
IBT - Lots of Indians move around. They land two AC. Sinop galley -> galley. Kafa court -> galley.
1 - 660AD - Bomb AC, then kill with two elite MI. 2-0
IBT - Americans land 2 MI, musket, longbow. Persia lands 3 knights and immortal. Bursa knight -> galley. Edirne knight -> knight. Izmit knight -> pike. Mugla harbor -> galley.
2 - 670AD - Bomb them, and kill them all but have very poor RNG streak, losing 2 elite MI and a knight
. However... we get a leader!!! Transport Selim back to the mainland. He will build an army, but will not be loaded until we land by Karachi. Turn down science to zero. We still get guns in 8 via scientists. 11-3IBT - Istanbul knight -> knight. Aydin knight -> pike.
3 - 680AD - Construct the army on the mainland and start building the Pentagon in Istanbul. Sink a Viking Caravel, but lose a galley to it.. 12-4
IBT - Vikings sail up another caravel. Indians land two swords. Persians want to talk. Nah... Bursa pike -> pike. Ankara galley -> pike.
4 - 690AD - Elites kill the swords. 14-4
IBT - Indian galley sinks one of ours. Americans land knight and musket. Vikings land musket, MI, crusader. Urfa galley -> galley. Uskudar settler -> settler. Denizili galley -> galley. 14-5
5 - 700AD - So... we kill them all... and get a second leader!
19-5. Change Istanbul back to knight production and rush Pentagon in Uskudar, only inland city with zero binned shields.IBT - Some shifting. Americans land musket, longbow, 2 MI. Bursa pike -> pike. Uskudar Pentagon -> settler. Izmit pike -> knight. Aydin pike -> pike. Persepolis builds Smith's TC. Indians now have Chivalry. They leave iron unguarded... too bad I am 3 turns away.
6 - 710AD - Kill the intruders. 23-5
IBT - Istanbul knight -> knight. Edirne knight -> knight.
7 - 720AD - Position the guys for iron landing.
IBT - Damn, the Indians leave a spear on the iron. Bursa pike -> pike. Iznik knight -> knight. Sinop galley -> galley. Bolu lib -> galley. Kirklareil galley-> galley.
8 - 730AD - Bomb indian galley, but our galley still loses. Found Iskendurun -> lib. Found Tunceli -> galley. 23-6
IBT - Intombe galley -> galley. Aydin pike -> pike. Konya knight -> knight. Kafa galley -> galley. Ankara pike -> pike. Mugla galley -> galley. Trondheim builds Magellan's.
9 - 740AD - Indians are still sittin on that tile. I'm not sure what to do.
IBT - Bursa pike -> pike. Urfa galley _> galley.
10 - 750AD - Send a couple of galleys round west of India to see if there are any decent landing spots.
Gunpowder is in 2, tho this can be brought forward to next turn, or delayed through management of scientists. We have 456g (+41gpt).
There is currently a clear spot S of Karachi... I can currently see 5 offensive Indian units that could reach that tile. Not counting possibles in Karachi, or any cavalry that are scattered. I say we just send in our strike force now. The longer we leave it, the more fortress like India will become. They are not leaving that iron spot, now that we are parked nearby. In and surrounding Aydin we have 5 galleys, 1 empty army, 9 pikes, 7 MI, 9 knights, 2 settlers.
If I was playing this on, I would take the army, 6 knights, settler, 8 pikes (as fodder), 4 MI, and land them now. I estimate 3-4 pikes will be lost in the interturn. We should then be able to take Karachi with a 16hp knight army next turn. Stick a city down, either in Karachi or on the south tile (i would prefer the extra culture tile outside this beach town to trap 1mp units), transport over a bunch of cats, rush some walls, and away we go. Indians have just learned Chivalry, so we should expect a slow trickle of jumbos and AC to defend against, but we can pick off the MI and swords as long as they get trapped within our culture.
But one of our galleys is able to see east of Lahore next turn, so we can wait and see if there is a hill there. If this is preferred, hows about we whack research up to 1 turn, get guns and upgrade some of our pikes to muskets?
The time is upon us, methinks. Oh yeah, and America has just entered the IA, so it won't be long before we see rifles landing on our shores. I'd really like to finish India before this happens.
Khan_Asparuh
Just a Bulgarian Eddie
We can't load the army in the open, it must be done in a city.
If we can't occupy the Iron tile, lets go with the direct approach. Too bad we missed the chance to kill some indians before landing, but hey, that's AWD.
Baal, you're up. Have fun and get us some indian heads (not Ghandi's, it doesn't fit in AW).
If we can't occupy the Iron tile, lets go with the direct approach. Too bad we missed the chance to kill some indians before landing, but hey, that's AWD.
Baal, you're up. Have fun and get us some indian heads (not Ghandi's, it doesn't fit in AW).
Sounds good, chunky. I'll examine the save tonight. America is in the IA? I agree, the time is now -- we need to attack India asap. We can't delay anymore. It would be a shame to land a weaker landing party than we could have 10 turns ago because they have a spear on the iron. I think we should make the landing in the north. If it's not on the mountain, then so be it. They only need to last 1 turn, and if we lose some, well they are only 30s pikes. We built them to be sacrificial anyways.
Also, you mention attacking Karachi with a 16hp knight army. I thought you needed to be in a city to assemble an army? Was I wrong about that? If I'm right, we either have to take Karachi with conventional troops, or build a city 2e of Karachi to assemble the army...which might lose us more than we'd gain...
Edit: X-post with Khan. I guess I wasn't wrong about the army...
Also, you mention attacking Karachi with a 16hp knight army. I thought you needed to be in a city to assemble an army? Was I wrong about that? If I'm right, we either have to take Karachi with conventional troops, or build a city 2e of Karachi to assemble the army...which might lose us more than we'd gain...
Edit: X-post with Khan. I guess I wasn't wrong about the army...
chunkymonkey
Procrastinator
I'm pretty sure you can load units into an army in the field. I just did it myself. When I rushed the Pentagon, i added an extra unit into both current knight armies.
Anyway, in order to get the empty army onto the boat this turn, we will need to load one knight into it anyway, since the army is two tiles away from Aydin. I really am convinced about being able to load units into the army.Load up the save for yourselves and test it.
Another thing, we're surrounded by a bunch of boats, which don't seem to know where to land - they keep going back and forth. I would have bomarded them, but they keep away from the coast usually.
I'm considering voting for Astronomy as our next tech - for caravels. We are another three techs away from anything useful on the lower branch of the tree.
Anyway, in order to get the empty army onto the boat this turn, we will need to load one knight into it anyway, since the army is two tiles away from Aydin. I really am convinced about being able to load units into the army.Load up the save for yourselves and test it.
Another thing, we're surrounded by a bunch of boats, which don't seem to know where to land - they keep going back and forth. I would have bomarded them, but they keep away from the coast usually.
I'm considering voting for Astronomy as our next tech - for caravels. We are another three techs away from anything useful on the lower branch of the tree.
I just did a quick search and it looks like you're right. I'll still test it, but I believe you now.chunky said:
I vote no on that. Since we're moving between such close islands, the movement point on caravels is useless. The only gain is the extra capacity. Caravels cost 40s, galleys cost 30s -- so 120s of caravels carry 9 units, while 120s of galleys carry 8 units. I don't think that's worth delaying sipahi (and our GA) an extra 10-15 turns... Maybe we can research it after we get mil trad, but even then I think we can live with galleys, and instead use the cash to short-rush sipahi... My two cents.chunky said:
Oh yeah, also I think cannons will be useful. Cats won't get all that many hits against rifles. So I put us at 2 away from a useful tech...
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