SGOTM7 - Team Chunky

[Mach]

I'm not too sure about this stuff, but even if we've taken a rep hit, I think that only means other civs won't accept gpt for techs. We can still trade gold straight up for techs, or (dare I hope?) education for engineering. Since we're not allowed to give gpt in a trade in this game, it's a moot point.

Yeah Khan, it's just the three of us for a week, so feel free to take your time. Maybe you can spread your turns over a few days: play a few, post some pics, we can discuss, rinse and repeat? I can do the same, that way we can move forward slowly and carefully until Chunky returns.

 

[Baalzebul]

Yeah we can still buy but it's price might be much more higher.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Declaring wars on other nations and destroying their cities cause a rep hit.

It causes an attitude hit, this is different. Still, I think that you're right, it results higher prices. But for a one time trade in a game we can handle this.
EDIT: I'll do as you say Mach if I have big decisions to take...

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

Checked the save. There's some MMing to do, we suffer from corruption, and our core is a bit slightly defended. I'll push towards Zulus, and try to get some Infra - markets and libs done - without overheating. Will play in 30 minutes.
The AI still lacks Litterature, will try to use it if I meet the Vikings. And stay at 0% science.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

SGOTM7
(0) 50AD
MM cities. We have blocked our south coast with (working) workers. Set Edirne to Market. Upgrade a warrior, we have 10 MDI, 2 knights and 8 horsemen. Move a spear from Fort and a Pike on the forest to lure the impis on the frontier.
(IBT) Zulus land 2 impis near Konya, Americans land a pike and MDI near Kafa
(1) 70AD
Sinop cat – barracks.
Knight dies against American pike, sword dies against the MDI Then I use archers to finish them. Redline the 4 Impis near Urfa and still manage to lose an MDI while killing them. again. And I have to leave a regular impi near Konya. Nothing that can strike him nearby. It can disconnect our horses.
Set Iznik at 10 spt. Building Knight. Kill ratio 7:4 so far I think… Forgot to count. Rush Urfa’s barracks for 148g.
Change Istanbul’s settler to knight, we need more of them. Set it to 18spt, with Bursa and Iznik at 10 spt. Upgrade some spears, for 30g it is a good thing to do IMO.
(IBT) Stupid Impi attacks our 2hp warrior on a hill and retreats. Zulus send 3 impis and a horse near Urfa.
(2) 90AD
Urfa Rax – lib, Uskudar settler – rax, Aydin knight-knight, Mugla settler – cat. Do you care that the Americans and the Persians know Engineering? Those 2 rivers we have are good, but cost us a lot of turns. No sign of Vikings.
Freaking redlined impi kills elite horse before dying to archer.
We need fast units in Urfa, those impies have never heard that retreat when redlined is not a 100% thing to do. Killed the horse and retreated 3 impies over there. Kill ratio 9:5.
(IBT) Finally an impi doesn’t retreat. Ratio 10:5. 2 american galleys show up.
(3) 110AD
Kill an Impi and get this:

Ratio 11:5, I’ll stop here for now. I intend to: build an army, I have 2 knights coming in 2 turns, plus a veteran horse. I’d like to upgrade him and load the army with 3 knights. Or we can load only 1 knight, to make it transportable, but I think that he has a lot to do in Zululand. What does the team think of this? Will be around for a while or will proceed the game tomorrow. The save is uploaded.

 

[Baalzebul]

I give my vote to building an army and loading with 3 knights. We need to finish Zululand as fast as possible. And if we finish them off at least it can defend this land.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

I'll play tomorrow...

 

[Mach]

Sounds great, dude. Go team! I'll look at the save later. Army in Zululand is fine with me, too; with it we'll be able to head off to Zimbabwe soon. Our ability to keep that city just increased -- we can park the army next to Zim, and keep recapturing it when it flips. Free walls! And after that our MI's and knights will be highly effective against spears without walls.

Sounds like we missed eng from the GL by just a few turns. Oh well...

How long shall we keep research off, now that eng is being passed around? I think the research time of it will go down when the Zulu either get it or are destroyed; do we want to wait that long? The only other reason to keep research off is to wait for the Vikings, in case they have eng but not edu, a very long shot...

Go ahead and upgrade that horse. Let's watch our expenditures, though; we're gonna want to build our bank for deficit research...

We'll have an army victory soon, is it worth it to prebuild for the Epic? More leaders good!

Edit: Hey Baal, did an Impi get a victory during your turns? I see you lost a few units to the Zulu, but it's unclear if you lost any of them to Impi. I'm just wondering because I don't think the Zulu got a wonder-triggered GA, so any Impi victory would have given them their GA, and they'd be maybe halfway through it right now...

 

[Baalzebul]

Let' s build the heroic epic we will need it much.

And yes they are on a golden age they had a victory on my second or third turn.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

They're in GA then.
I think of switching Edirne's market to HE when I get an army victory. But I won't keep the army near Zimbabwe when I find and capture it, it is too powerfull to be left for a single city. A couple of MDI nearby must do the job.
EDIT: when you check the save, keep in mind that I was in the beginning of the turn, haven't MMed, don't even know if we don't allready know the Vikings. Just attacked, renamed and saved.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

One more thing, guys, do we really want to keep Zimbabwe? Only for the GW it isn't worth the risk...

 

[Mach]

Yeah, it's about time for us to make a decision on that, isn't it. I say burn it. It would be worth keeping if it gave us free walls everywhere, but since it's just on that continent, it ain't worth the trouble. We have one settler in theater, and another on the way...

They also have, what, the oracle? Burn that too -- it stops working at theology.

 

[Baalzebul]

Burn all of them.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

SGOTM7 (suite)
(3) 110AD continued…
The leader forms an army in Urfa. I won’t be able to upgrade the horse over there because it has no harbour and if I rush it I won’t have enough money for the upgrade. So it stays there waiting for the 2 knights to come plus a third from Istanbul due next turn. Set Edirne to full production for the upcoming HE. Move units around to face American landing in Persian lands. We’re short on units, I’ll stop the Zululand convoys after the army knights.
(IBT) 4 zulus near Urfa, 2 american galleys near our west coast. A Persian too.
(4) 130AD
Istanbul and Bursa knight-knight, Konya MDI – lib.
Redline and kill 2 impis and 2 horses in Zululand, leaving elite pike in the open. 15:5 so far.
(IBT) Americans land an archer, MDI and knight near Mugla. 2 persian galleys next turn. 5 zulu units near Urfa.
(5) 150AD
Unload units and load army. We have our first army victory against a zulu horse, then I send it on a mountain deep in Zululand, one turn away from Zimbabwe. Kill 4 more Zulus and 3 americans, ratio 22:5.
I’m fed of all those rivers. Set research to 50%, engineering due in 16 at -40. One turn before its market, Edirne can finish HE in 7 turns at 16spt.
(IBT) Movements.
(6) 170AD
American and Persian landings due next turn. The west is highly convoited. Killed a zulu horse. Army attacks Zimbabwe 2 impis die for 3 HP plus a promotion. Ratio 25:5.
Prepare for American and Persian landing, entertainer in Ankara.
(IBT) Americans land an archer. Persians head for the Northwest, and land a Knight in their tiles owned on our island.
(7) 190AD
I lose an archer against the American and finish him with wounded knight. Then a horse kills the Persian knight Empty Salonika to force the Persians to land over there, against 4 cats, 3 MDI and 2 horses (local garrison). 4 Zulus die near Urfa, netting us 2 elite MDI. Then an impi in Zimbabwe redlines our army (3 hp left), I send it on a nearby mountain. Ratio 32:6.
(IBT) Persians turn around, Americans land a knight near Mugla
(8) 210AD
Istanbul Knight-Knight, Iznik knight-pike for MP, Kafa riots because of the American galley.
4 more dead Zulus (2 elite wins and a horse promotion); American knight dies too. Army fortifies to heal. As much as I dislike it, I blockade the Persian coast with workers. Ratio 37:6
Mugla is empty to attract a maximum of enemies around. Sinop will build a harbour and give us some galleys to redline and kill the enemy transports.
(IBT) Zulu horse suicides against Urfa’s pike. 38:6. 3 persian galleys in sight.
(9) 230AD
Aydin knight-pike, Salonika cat – lib, Mugla riots because of the Persian galley. We need some fleet. 5 more Zulus die, 43:6.
(IBT) Persian knight lands next to Mugla. They are building Leo’s. Americans finish Sistines. Kill a barb galley. Does this count?
(10) 250AD
6 cat hits are too few to redline the Persian knight, but finally he’s dead. Kill “only” 2 Zulus, one elite win, no hero. HE due in 2 turns, it must help. Army kills 2 more Zulus in Zimbabwe and is at 3 HP again. I doubt they’ll attack it, even in the open, but I’ll pray. I would fortify it to heal where it is.
Final ratio 48:6, mostly Zulus. No vikes around, I have some galleys going out to explore. I think that we can pull some units out of Urfa, we have 4 settlers there and 71gpt unit support We need those markets, and some libs too IMO in the 5 core cities at least.
We can find cities in enemy territory, like on the spots on the screenie. Zulu unit flaw is slower now. We can send 2 settlers with MDI, pike, horse and archer each.
India still lacks MM. It will be hot near Istanbul when they get it.
Remember, Mugla is empty to attract the enemy. We have a good military presence over there.
Go on guys! Good luck

 

[Mach]

Anybody see any way I can give help to our army? It's threatening their capital, and the ai puts a very high priority on that, as I understand it. So I think they're going to send everything they have at it, and since it has roads all around, it doesn't stand much of a chance unless we can get it some help. (Just a guess, but I betcha it'll have to stand up to 4-5 attacks on the next IT. Whatever archers they have in or below Zim, plus what they might have in range to the north...) I stared at it and didn't see any way of diverting the ai's attention. Maybe if we could get a horse next to Zim they'd attack him first, but we're not in reach... (IMO, the army is a goner. I'm trying to be optimistic here... )

There's really no way it can take Zim by itself -- this being deity, that city probably has a dozen impi in it, and it can probably build a new one every other turn. So if the army survives, I'm gonna pull it back to heal, then I'll send it through southern Zululand to pillage for awhile until we can build up more offensive troops in Urfa -- we have way too many cats there, and way too few offensive troops. Once we got enough knights/MI's up there, I'll use the army to escort them and a bunch of cats to Zim to burn it.

With the way the land curves, I think we'll want to take out southern Zululand first, then sweep north.

Also, I don't like where our scouting galleys are -- ai's like to attack single galleys, and I don't want to lose one. I'll move one into Iznik (from there one galley can transport 6 troops in two turns, I think), and I'll stack the other three for a ride around Zululand.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

I disagree, I don't think the AI will attack the army. Hope I'm right... And even if it does, we can certainly stand a lot of hits. I cant recall the ratio, but it's defense is at least 5 now. This last impi took many HP, and I had the fix idea to take Zimbabwe even if not really needed. Should have gone for the other cities. Sorry. The army can't get help for the next turn, so all we can do is wait and see.
I don't see your point about Galleys, the AI rarely attacks with them, ours are quite safe IMO. They can be bombed and killed if redlined though, but a straight attack isn't a real menace.
BTW, just so you know it, the persian galley near Mugla is empty, the ones near Bolu are not probably.
EDIT: With Zimbabwe standing, northern Zululand is a lot easier to capture right now.

 

[Mach]

The defense bonus for an army is the sum of the defense bonuses of the units in our army, divided by 6. So that's 3+3+3/6 = 1.5, so our defense is currently 4.5. Multiply that by 3hp, and you get a 'power' of 13.5.

Two vet attack-two units have a total 'power' of 2att*4hp*2 = 16 so (even if my math is a bit off) two archers have about an even shot against the army. Four horses/archers have a 'power' of 32. If they decide to attack, the odds are not good. I think they will -- their choices are go after the 13.5 'power' army threatening their capital, or go after the power 25 (estimate 5def*5hp) pike in our city.

I sure ain't no expert on this, but it's how I understand the ai works -- it targets units that threaten its cities, and it targets weakness.

Maybe if I pull our pikes and elites out of the city and unfortify everyone else, leaving the (4hp*3def = 12) MI's with cat support to defend against horses...

I heart math.

 

[Khan_Asparuh]

As you know, Mach, I've never been good enough player to do such calculations... All I know is that the AI doesn't count the units as a stack of attack, but one by one.
Still, you're right as usual, the trick of pulling out the pikes and leaving Urfa lightly protected might work... Would it be against the rules if I do a playtest after you submit your turns?

 

[Mach]

I'd imagine that's fine. I'll probably do the same; go back and replay that turn a bunch of times, look at different outcomes. After I submit, of course. Might learn something from it...

I can't start playing until tomorrow morning, unfortunately, so the suspense will have to hang around for awhile. Can we bear it?

 

[Mach]

Here's what I've done so far.

Preflight (250AD)
Ok, I pull our pikes and spears out of Urfa. Cross fingers. We have waay too many cats up there, and waay too few offensive units. If we lose that army, it'll be a huge hit.
Now, about our economy. We still make more gold than beakers, so I turn research off for the moment. Libs in our core is a high priority.
I'd also like to get rid of fluff units -- the vet horses and archers in Urfa, for instance. They aren't doing anything useful at all really...
Going from 10% to 20% lux only costs us 6gpt. Can I disband 6 warriors because of it? Not yet, but maybe in a turn or two. I'll merge some workers...
We have a worker fortified on a mountain? I move him into Izmit.
(I) Americans land a knight
Our army retreats from an archer, and gets destroyed by a horse. 0-4
Vikings get Sun Tzu and KT, Americans get Cop's.

T1 (260AD)
Kill the American knight. 1-4
I merge two workers into Izmit.
Kill a Zulu impi, archer, and horse, 2 elite victories, no dice. 4-4
Research stays off -- it's a difference of 2gpt.
(I) Heroic Epic!
Uskudar riots, damn.
Persia lands a knight.

T2 (270AD)
Kill an impi, archer, and horse, 2 elite victories, no dice. Again.
Kill the persian knight. 8-4
It's now an even shot, research or gold. I go with research. Ist's library finishes in 2 turns, and after that it's no contest.
(I) Stack of 5 Zulus shows up outside Urfa.

T3 (280AD)
I fire every cat we got. Kill 2 archers, 1 impi, 2 horses, retreat 1 horse, 3 elite kills, lose 1 archer. 13-5
All these kills, not a single upgrade yet!
10% lux gets us 106 sci right now. 20% lux gets us 103, plus more food and shields and stuff. I'm going with that.
(I) See an american caravel!
Kill a Zulu horse, and retreat another. 14-5
Zulu land a horse and impi.

T4 (290AD)
Bomb the Zulu outside Urfa...elite MI wins and nets us Murad I!!!

Build an army, Mach's Mauraders, I already have 3 knights to fill it.
Kill archer and horse, 16-5. No Zulu in sight near Urfa now.
Kill the impi and horse in the south, 18-5.
(I) Persians land a knight.

T5 (300AD)
My Mauraders are full. Send him off to pillage.
Kill Zulu impi and horse, 20-5.
Kill Persian knight, 21-5.
(I) Persian finish Leo's. They land a knight and immortal.
The army is blocking the Zulu road, so no troops show up near Urfa!

T6 (310AD)
Our cats do good, kill the Persian knight and immortal. 23-5
(I) Take out a Zulu horse. 24-5
No new landings in the south.
Three new knights come off the line.

T7 (320AD)
Kill impi, horse. 26-5
My mauraders start pillaging!

Ok, I'm gonna stop here for now, so I can get away and think. I'm starting to zone out. The Indians got maps, I'm thinking of just having a warrior in Aydin, and let them land there. We're a bit weak up there, but it's not too bad. The American caravels seem to be heading to India, I don't know why. Maybe they are at war?!? That would be quite a break for us. The persians don't have eng yet, I was hoping they would. We're 12 turns away from it at this point. By the end of my turns, I'll have 4 knights in Urfa. Maybe the next player will be able to burn Zim -- use the army to escort those knights, some cats, and some MI's... I'm going to use the army to disconnect Zim, then rip up the irrigation around Ulundi. The indians seem to have a rediculous number of units. My kill ratio is awesome so far, except for losing that army. If we get another leader, I'm gonna send him home, to build a homeland defense army.

What do you guys think? I can finish these turns tomorrow.

the situation