SGOTM8 - klarius

[Megalou]

A small question, I will end up with a couple settlers after shrinking Athens&Delphi, what do you think should be done with them? I'm leaning towards merging them with those of our core cities that aren't size 12 yet...

I would ICS those settlers near Greece - two tiles east of Beijing for example - and join workers to the core. If we have another longish war with Greece the Greek citizens will be unhappy. That unhappiness wouldn't matter in small, corrupt towns.

Some extra tiles near captured cities reduce flip risks, as was so expertly shown in our conquest of China. The flip risk in Athens is around 3.5% now.

 

[Ciceronian]

A question on techs: Should we beeline to Flight or should we research Scientific Theory first? We would get two free techs with ToE. Is it worth it?

 

[klarius]

For sure don't merge settlers. We need lots of cities in the north. We will never build aqueducts up there, so build as dense as possible.

And generally never merge foreign population in the core.

Edit:
Techwise I think we should start towards flight. We might do the diversion to Sci method later, if somebody gets us medicine first.
We really want flight ASAP. If we want to go the ToE course we want expensive free techs like combustion and flight. So we should research up to there first and have a prebuild read for ToE.

 

[Northern Pike]

If we leave Knossos to the Greeks this cuts off the northern part, so we probably better leave Thermopylae to them and get to the north first.

Of course this is true tactically, but are you absolutely sure that if we take Delphi and Knossos, the capital won't move to Argos? There will be a lot more Greek cities close to Argos than to Thermopylae at that point.

Attacking greek cities on other islands is pretty hopeless for this war. We don't have the money to rush and upgrade enough military in a short time and on the english island the towns are also far from ours.

It's not as though this project would require a lot of units. We could quite possibly raze Eretria with one cav, though two would be safer, and a force of two cav could also do some damage against the other three distant cities.

 

[klarius]

Of course this is true tactically, but are you absolutely sure that if we take Delphi and Knossos, the capital won't move to Argos? There will be a lot more Greek cities close to Argos than to Thermopylae at that point.

I'm not absolutely sure, but what we now is that Argos has 2 towns more in it's vicinity. That compares to two population worth 6 points.
Knossos is only one town better than Thermopylae.

It's not as though this project would require a lot of units. We could quite possibly raze Eretria with one cav, though two would be safer, and a force of two cav could also do some damage against the other three distant cities.

Sure we could raze Eretria with some effort, but why?

 

[Evil_Kanevil]

Save here'

Pre-turn (550):
Trade ToG for 82 gold, 101 gpt, WM and Music Theory with romans
Hurry a worker in sparta

Turn 1(560): Resistance ends in Athens, hurry a settler. Our longbowman kills one of theirs.

Turn 2(570):
Research Magnetism, Steam power in 4 turns @ 100% sci.

Athens builds settler,
start trying to get our workers towards the core for faster RR

Turn 3(580):
We take Delphi, but it costs us 2 cavs
Hurry a few things

Turn 4(590):
d/c salpeter, Hurry horsemen overseas.

Greece pillages the delphi iron. Bah

Turn 5(600):
A greek Med. Inf shows up 2 squares from Richmond, hurry a defender.
Take Knossos, without losses this time. Steam power in 1,
Hurry more settlers


Turn 6(610):
Learn Steam power, industrialization in 4 turns @ 100%
Our horseman attacks greek Med.Inf, redlines it but dies.
Trade Magnetism to rome for WM, 45 gold and 53 GPT

Turn 7(620):

Turn 8(630):
Sci to 90%
Take Pharsalos, but we lose 2 cavs.

Turn 9(640):
I have to make an abrupt end here, as my plane back home leaves sooner than I thought...
Notes for next player: We should probably make peace with greece soon, we can take their northernmost town next turn, but if we don't make peace immediately we have to increase lux some.
Our iron was pillaged, and I didn't get to trade for any which means our railroads are delayed (there is a stack of workers connecting the iron)

 

[Ronald]

I have civ reinstalled and it works. So I will play the next turns. Have not looked much into the file yet.
I will play tomorrow. Any comments or advise?

 

[klarius]

A lot MM necessary, but you will see yourself. Peace with Greece soon is necessary. We could gamble and take Thermopylae also, after Ephesus. Capital will most probably move to Mycenae, because it then has 3 towns more in it's range than Argos. Still it's a question if we will ever get Herakleia, so capital in Mycenae also doesn't look too nice.
Delphi should get a culture building to get two more tiles under control, but will still be a flip risk. So we should look to get a colony on the iron north of Ephesus to be on the safe side. An option would be to abandon Delphi and build culture in Minneapolis to get iron without flip risk.

Next short war (after trades run out) should be Japan IMO. And we should start it with a small gifting operation in case we cannot do much with the few troops we can afford. There should be a chance to get one of the antarctic towns in a peace treaty.

Another war, I think we should start soon is against China. This should be a phony war from our side, so we will need some units to defend Tatung island. The idea behind this war is to get some allies (maybe Rome, Greece and Vikings), so that somebody captures Tientsin. So the war needs to last pretty long and we should avoid war weariness inducing actions.

We will need factories in our core so that we have some towns with a decent production after GA. Especially Washington and New York should start a prebuild right away.
As usual we need more of everything everywhere and don't have enough money. Culture in Albuquerque is pretty high on the priority list as well as workers everywhere.

 

[Ronald]

Agree with your comments klarius.
On the research side I am going directly towards flight and plan ToE for afterwards.

 

[Northern Pike]

Though I hardly like the idea, I think we should let the Greeks keep Thermopylae. Since it looks unlikely that anything we can do in this war will get us a foothold on one of the two important islands, we'll probably retain the most options with the Greek capital on our continent.

The deal which brings us silks and furs from the Romans will expire in three turns. We should have a clear idea of what we're going to do then, because giving them Steam Power just to renew the deal would IMO be undesirable unless they could throw in a lot of gold, which looks improbable. We should have Albuquerque's wool online in about ten turns, of course.

In an ordinary game, this would be the time to treat virtually all infrastructure builds as factory pre-builds. Here the line is harder to draw, since research speed is the essential factor. But at a minimum, I'd switch New York, Boston, Houston, and Detroit to factory pre-builds. The adjustment to New York has to be made before we press Enter, or it'll complete a harbour.

I agree with Klarius's ideas of a real war against Japan as soon as practical, and a long phony war with allies against China.

I also agree with Flight first, ToE later.

Evil, good work pumping out the settlers.

 

[Megalou]

My 2c.

Obviously, Tatung island is too weak for a war against China at the moment. In a while, sure, but hardly during Ronalds turns. I would say we need 3 cavs there to be on the safe side. Not muskets -Tatung island can be a good place to fish for leaders.

War with Japan is a great idea. While the gifting strategy is starting to lose its potential, Japan is still small and undeveloped and may give several towns if we push them.

Next short war (after trades run out) should be Japan IMO. And we should start it with a small gifting operation in case we cannot do much with the few troops we can afford.

Not attacking often means being attacked. How many cavs on Japanese/Roman island? I'd say around half a dozen. We should eliminate Japan entirely in two wars before Advanced Flight. That means crippling them now.

As for more current affairs: as long as Argos doesn't become the capital, Thermopylae might as well be captured. It covers a lot of land that we could ICS and to capture it I think is a better way to remove flip risks than to hurry a lot of expensive temples. (Temple in Delphi seems necessary, though.) If you get into a position where war weariness delays research, then do as you please. Perhaps capturing Thermopylae makes our chance to eliminate Greece before Advanced Flight even smaller, but I think we should be quite happy if we just eliminate England, Japan and China before Advanced Flight. Helicopter raids to the resource-rich Herakleia and Mycenae look unavoidable.

Albuquerque has a surprisingly low flip risk for being so close to London. (England has the least culture of all civs, 706 cp.) But I agree we want a temple there to put pressure on York and maintain a quick attack route to London.

The deal which brings us silks and furs from the Romans will expire in three turns. We should have a clear idea of what we're going to do then, because giving them Steam Power just to renew the deal would IMO be undesirable unless they could throw in a lot of gold, which looks improbable. We should have Albuquerque's wool online in about ten turns, of course.

Buying those luxuries for gpt will be very, very expensive considering our large number of marketplaces. It's really my fault we only have 1 luxury left to trade to them because I sold dyes and gems to them for the low price of 24 gpt. (8 turns left of that deal.) If it weren't for the war with Japan it looks like we will soon be able to trade ivory from them. There is just one Japanese road that needs completion.

Getting Steam Power in three turns would certainly be a huge boost for Rome. Like NP, I feel quite reluctant about giving it to them. klarius, you advocate generosity with techs - what is you view?

As for Greek technology, there is no reason to gift them after the war. They only have 3 techs to learn and we don't need Medicine until after we get Flight.

Good Luck, Ronald!

 

[Ronald]

I just started to play. Our empire was in quite a mess. It took me about 1.5 hours to micro manage income and food. The net result was more than 50 gpt!!!!
I started to optimize shields, but for the real optimization run I will wait after the GA expires in two turns.

Guys, please check our cities more often. It is better to play just 5 turns, but these well, and by well I mean try to optimize to your best abilities, than 10 sloppy turns!
The next 20 turns or so will take a long time to optimize the empire. Every new railroad will change the optimium. I will try to do my best to keep it optimized every turn.
Ciceronian, please be aware of this difficulty. If it takes too long to check for ten turns, play less. We are in a crucial phase, so we should waste as little as possible.

I will play on today, but probably will finish my turns tomorrow.

@megalou: I am also reluctant to trade steam power with Rome at the moment. When the lux trade expires, I will check the possibilities.

 

[Ronald]

I finished my turns. No dramatic events. Here is the turn log:

Turn 0 (640 AD): MM like hell, get 50gpt more

turn 1 (650 AD): research industrialization, start the corporation, capture ephesus, no loss; bring troops towards Thermophylae;
GA ends

turn 2 (660 AD): rush a few horsemen, some MM

interturn: lost silks and furs

turn 3 (670 AD): trade steam power for nav, silks furs, 13g + 6gpt reluctantly. We would loose 80gpt + 1 turn in research if we don't trade and Rome has not connected their coal yet

turn 4 (680 AD): capture Thermophylae, loose 1 cav; peace with greece for troy, 4g, WM; lots of railroads

turn 5 (690 AD): some MM, some WM trading, railroads

turn 6 (700 AD): research corporation, start steel, science at 100% change some taxmen to scientists to get to 5 turn research

turn 7 (710 AD): more railroads

turn 8 (720 AD): even more railroads, trade with Rome expires, renew partially: dyes for 21g + 13gpt

turn 9 (730 AD): and some more railroads, MM

turn 10 (740 AD): MM, rush cavalry

turn 11 (750 AD): research steel, start refining, MM to research in 6 turns (no possibility to research in 5 turns); big tade with Rome expires, trade industrialisation for 3g, 52 gpt, wool


Japanese/Roman continent has now 7 cavs and one musketman. War with Japan can start soon. Need to rush 2 cavs on macau island to take out matsujama.
Troj has no defender or improvement so far (was no priority for me)
Cities on english island have 1 cav and one spearman probably need more
We are relatively close to our unit limit (94, 100 allowed). Close watch and some more cities necessary soon.
Flight is about 18 turns away. started to build cavs in core cities to prepare for airlift.
Washington has factory and produces now 42 shields. (1 cav every second turn)
Chicago grows this turn and should work afterwards the mountain.

 

[Megalou]

Beautiful setup! I can't believe how quickly you've railoaded and optimized.

Some details:

A barb camp has formed to the north of our continent and should be a welcome prey for our proud cavalrists.

In view of a possible alliance against China (suggested by klarius) I decided to count the Chinese citizens and I'm happy to say that I only found 2, one in Shanghai and one in Xinjian.

Shouldn't Portland build cavalry instead of musketman? It has a spearman who could walk to Anyang to be upgraded to musketman.

It breaks my heart to see New York having a specialist, what with Copernicus' and all. We can change a citizen in Houston from grassland to coast, still getting university in 5, and work ourselves through Chicago (why is the unimproved BG worked?), San Fransisco and New Orleans () and get rid of the specialist. It would require some temporary food shortage.

Plus Chicago can be optimized for growth.

Now that the world is almost entirely populated - I can only see five spots where the AI should like to settle, apart from the islands near are core which we are invading with culture and which the AI seem reluctant to settle - what can we do to avoid having AI settlers floating around that will be hard to find in the end game? I am inclined towards some conscious razing. Scandinavia is by far the biggest cultural power so perhaps we should clear their island entirely so that any civs that we fail to eliminate can settle there. Because Scandinavia is likely to be the last nut to crack, our effort to do so should perhaps coincide with the last settlements that various other civs build. Do you feel that there are any other areas that should also be left open for settlements?

If we don't succeed I can see us doing endless recon missions in the end and making ironic remarks to oureslves about how we went out of our way to speed up research by a few turns.

 

[Megalou]

A word of warning: Tokyo has Statue of Zeus. It wasn't finished until 420 AD so they have only gotten 6 ancient cavs so far - another in 2 turns I believe - but we should give them Chemistry and Metallurgy to make SoZ obsolete.

 

[Megalou]

Edit: I see now that Houston can just build university in four if it swaps tiles with Seattle (grassland for coast.) But after that, please get rid of New York's specialist.

I also think luxury should be reduced to zero very soon. We Love the King Day is useful but cash is more useful.

 

[klarius]

I would still recommend to trade/gift Greece into IA and look what they get. In fact I would have done it before selling industry so cheap to the romans.

There is still a 1/3 chance Greece gets medicine. And even if they get nationalism that isn't bad. It will make it more affordable at some time without further feeding Rome.

If Greece gets medicine, I would buy it with steam power, MT and gpt and try to get the gpt back with industry. If they get nationalism, I would wait until Rome has it also.
If they get steam - tough luck.

Getting combustion and flight from ToE is still an attractive option (if Greece would get medicine). At our current research capacity we will need 7 turns to research flight and 6 turns for combustion.
Electricity and sci method should work in 9 turns together.
Washington could prebuild with suffrage. There's just enough time with research of refining, electricty and sci method (there's a little bit of flexibility by MM between Washington and New York). But we have to decide now and for that we need to know if medicine is available.

 

[Ronald]

Beautiful setup! I can't believe how quickly you've railoaded and optimized.

A barb camp has formed to the north of our continent and should be a welcome prey for our proud cavalrists..

I forgot to mention that. When we destroy that another will form on the mountain north of Thermophylae

Shouldn't Portland build cavalry instead of musketman? It has a spearman who could walk to Anyang to be upgraded to musketman..

Yes, thats probably better

It breaks my heart to see New York having a specialist, what with Copernicus' and all. .

Stupid me, forgot to change that during last turn

If we don't succeed I can see us doing endless recon missions in the end and making ironic remarks to oureslves about how we went out of our way to speed up research by a few turns.

I believe our bombers have lethal sea bombardment, with that it should be not too difficult to get rid of every transporting vessel. Also Scandinavia seems to be modded they did not buíld any settler outside their empire so far. If this is the case in the future and we deal with them last we don't have this problem at all.

 

[Ronald]

I would still recommend to trade/gift Greece into IA and look what they get. In fact I would have done it before selling industry so cheap to the romans.

There is still a 1/3 chance Greece gets medicine. And even if they get nationalism that isn't bad. It will make it more affordable at some time without further feeding Rome.

Getting combustion and flight from ToE is still an attractive option (if Greece would get medicine). At our current research capacity we will need 7 turns to research flight and 6 turns for combustion.
Electricity and sci method should work in 9 turns together.
Washington could prebuild with suffrage. There's just enough time with research of refining, electricty and sci method (there's a little bit of flexibility by MM between Washington and New York). But we have to decide now and for that we need to know if medicine is available.

It will speed up flight by about 4 turns, but will delay advanced flight by 4 to 6 turns. If you believe that the earlier flight makes our lives easier and the overall war quicker we should try it. When I did the trading with Rome I hoped and still hope that we can fight against musketmen and not riflemen.

 

[klarius]

It will speed up flight by about 4 turns, but will delay advanced flight by 4 to 6 turns. If you believe that the earlier flight makes our lives easier and the overall war quicker we should try it. When I did the trading with Rome I hoped and still hope that we can fight against musketmen and not riflemen.

I don't see how you calculate the delay for advanced flight.
The difference between taking combustion and flight instead of the classic atomic theory and electronics is 500 beakers each, 1000 in total. That shouldn't be more than 2 turns.

But our problem currently is really not advanced flight.
We cannot have a war against Rome without flight. And by the time we have flight they will have nationalism pretty sure.
We cannot do anything about the Vikings currently. We will need flight and a substantial bomber fleet, before we can hope to do something. They will probably have rifles by then also.
These two civs are the big problem in the long run. And if we don't manage to do something about them ASAP the problem will not be rifles, but infantry and maybe tanks.