SGOTM8 - klarius

[klarius]

Yes, I am confident about the mechanics, as my original observation should clearly suggest.

Still, to be on the safe side it's better to have Washington on prebuild with suffrage (I hope it's still available) and switch it over via TBP. If anything happens and the tech doesn't complete, one just loses one turn of shield production not a complete tech.

For Japan I would rather go for Tokyo and raze it. This is the city which still puts a lot of culture pressure on our towns.
The rest of Japan is of less concern.
Currently we could get a size 2 town in antarctica. We could immediately rush a worker for 80g and let it riot and the worker still complete (don't let it starve). If this changes to size one towns only, it will take 20 turns until we are able to build a worker there unless we rush a harbor or abandon the city. I would rather make peace with Japan, before their cities starve.

Looking around a little in our empire, there are lots of nonsense builds. Lots of military builds in one shield towns and also some barracks. We will not have the money to rush a lot anytime soon, so I don't see the benefit.

If we have money to spare there are some other projects to rush.
We have some cities off our island which are not completely corrupt. These could benefit from a courthouse and maybe even some libraries. Courthouses in corrupt cities with tourism like Beijing could also pay off. There are also still some cities under large cultural pressure. Also some cities which could provide more specialists with a harbor.
We don't have the money for all these projects, but definitely shouldn't waste money on rushing military units, now that we are only a few turns away from airfields.

 

[Megalou]

Still, to be on the safe side it's better to have Washington on prebuild with suffrage (I hope it's still available) and switch it over via TBP. If anything happens and the tech doesn't complete, one just loses one turn of shield production not a complete tech.

Good point.

Looking around a little in our empire, there are lots of nonsense builds. Lots of military builds in one shield towns and also some barracks. We will not have the money to rush a lot anytime soon, so I don't see the benefit.

I noticed this too, and will throw away some shields and build workers, particularly on the English continent.

 

[Northern Pike]

I've come around to thinking to thinking that we should stop research after Flight. I doubt that we'd be able to do enough to win in the thirty turns after ToE with all our cash going to research, but with 600-700 gpt for rushing we certainly could, so I think we have to gamble that the Romans will take Tientsin for us. Klarius's point that the Romans will probably get some sort of force to Tientsin if we dispose of all other Chinese cities is a good one; and we'll be able to help the Romans to some extent with our bombers, though how much depends on sequence-of-play intricacies.

So, I think we should take Macao and Yokohama from the Chinese as soon as we can, certainly in Megalou's first few turns, and then bring the Romans into the war when Tientsin is their only possible target. Macao is on a hill and our two cav units on that island have a record of demonstrated incompetence , so the safe play would be to rush another cav in Anyang before we make our move there. We don't quite have the funds for that at the moment, but we could sell Music Theory (to the Chinese) and a map, say, to raise the 57 gold we're short.

In my opinion the Tientsin question is the only serious risk involved in this line of play. About taking island cities and getting footholds without Advanced Flight, I'm quite optimistic. We'll soon be able to do gift-and-retakes of thirty cities or more, and to bomb our objectives down to size one. Our enemies will surrender what we need.

When we've taken the remaining Japanese mainland cities and the two Chinese cities we can reach, we should probably airlift units to Richmond and Troy and attack the English after a large gift-and-retake, leaving them London. They've got two size-one cities on islands where we need to establish ourselves, and they're presumably weak enough that we can crush them while simultaneously building up our army for more serious wars.

If we follow this approach, we'll have to research Nationalism (for mobilization) after Flight if no one thinks of a cunning alternative, but I imagine one of you will.

Might the little-used propaganda option (meaning Espionage) let us take any island cities? I don't really think so, but the question should be raised.

 

[Northern Pike]

If we have money to spare there are some other projects to rush. We have some cities off our island which are not completely corrupt. These could benefit from a courthouse and maybe even some libraries. Courthouses in corrupt cities with tourism like Beijing could also pay off. There are also still some cities under large cultural pressure. Also some cities which could provide more specialists with a harbor.
We don't have the money for all these projects, but definitely shouldn't waste money on rushing military units, now that we are only a few turns away from airfields.

This would all be fine if we were halfway through a leisurely builder's game, but we should be finishing in 30-40 turns. Our gold should go to military rushes if we're going to stop at Flight, or to maximum research if we want Advanced Flight; anything else is pointless.

Megalou, do as you please with our builds in corrupt towns, but as best I recall workers can be airlifted, so there's no need to build them overseas unless you think we don't have enough in absolute terms. Settlers, which can't be airlifted, might be a better idea overseas, especially (for eventual tactical use) on Rome's continent.

 

[Ronald]

This would all be fine if we were halfway through a leisurely builder's game, but we should be finishing in 30-40 turns. Our gold should go to military rushes if we're going to stop at Flight, or to maximum research if we want Advanced Flight; anything else is pointless.

Settlers, which can't be airlifted,....

I think we can build enough units without rushing too much. Every turn for advanced flight will count.

We can airlift settlers, it says so on page one of the maintenance thread

 

[Northern Pike]

We can airlift settlers, it says so on page one of the maintenance thread

If you're talking about the first post, it says that settlers can be loaded into helicopters. I don't believe we've been told that ordinary airlifting with airfields and airports is modded at all--which means that settlers aren't eligible.

I suppose this was a predictable misunderstanding, since you're thinking in terms of what we can do with Advanced Flight, and I now think we have to win without Advanced Flight.

 

[Ronald]

If you're talking about the first post, it says that settlers can be loaded into helicopters. I don't believe we've been told that ordinary airlifting with airfields and airports is modded at all--which means that settlers aren't eligible.

I suppose this was a predictable misunderstanding, since you're thinking in terms of what we can do with Advanced Flight, and I now think we have to win without Advanced Flight.

Yes, I was thinking about helicopters. Again, I have my very serious doubts about stopping research after flight. As mentioned 1230 AD is for me a very realistic victory date for us and with this date we should be in Wacken's range.

 

[Megalou]

Megalou, do as you please with our builds in corrupt towns, but as best I recall workers can be airlifted,...

Yes they can.

...so there's no need to build them overseas unless you think we don't have enough in absolute terms. Settlers, which can't be airlifted, might be a better idea overseas, especially (for eventual tactical use) on Rome's continent.

We have one worker on the English continent, with 6 turns left of roading our only lamb resource. We need an airfield to airlift units to, and I'd like to see the lamb connected sooner.

Well, Advanced Flight or not? Everyone should give their opinion. As for me, the Tientsin scheme doesn't agree with my gut feeling. It is a capital. What if I make an embassy there and check the number of defenders? I could post here afterwards. But I won't be home until around 10 pm.

 

[klarius]

My current feeling is, to stay open .
Do the alliance with Rome against China. Continue to sell tech to Rome for gpt and luxes (not electricity, by that we should be able to keep them away from RP). Research full up to motorized transport, then reevaluate, if the real expensive branch AT, electronics, AF is necessary.
Try to get cities from England, Scandinavia and Greece in the meantime.

 

[Ronald]

My current feeling is, to stay open .
Do the alliance with Rome against China. Continue to sell tech to Rome for gpt and luxes (not electricity, by that we should be able to keep them away from RP). Research full up to motorized transport, then reevaluate, if the real expensive branch AT, electronics, AF is necessary.
Try to get cities from England, Scandinavia and Greece in the meantime.

If we don that right away, we are allied with them untill 1050 AD. If they take out Tientsin during that time it is great. If not, we still have time to take on Rome and reduce them to island cities untill 1180 AD. Time enough.

Greece and England we can play the gifiting city trick easily.

Doing the same with Scandinavia is more risky (Beserks). Do you have any specific plan with the Vikings klarius?

I agree to postpone the advanced flight decision untill we have motorized transportation.

 

[Megalou]

Fine. Tanks would indeed be comforting in a later war v/s Rome. BTW I expect we will be able to trade Nationalism for Steel and Refining. I think this would be pretty OK. Those techs will hardly lead anywhere for Rome.

So I will ally Rome against China right away (I guess I will grant them The Corporation), and hurry a cavalry on the Macao island. Do you feel that Scandinavia should also be an ally in this war? I think the default answer to that question is a "no," since it could well intervene with our plans for Scandinavia, but there has been talk about a World War so maybe someone would like to convince me...

I am against doing the gifting trick with England. It should not be necessary. It does cost quite a few citizens to do it on a large scale. Greece is a different matter: Gift-retake-bombard like nuts.

Considering the need for aircraft, the corrupt towns to the north now building cavalry should perhaps save up for at least one aircraft each, even if we must restrict rushing. I believe that poulation is not killed until all the defenders of a town are redlined. I think we should attack in waves of around 10 aircraft at a time, not much less anyway.

 

[klarius]

Doing the same with Scandinavia is more risky (Beserks). Do you have any specific plan with the Vikings klarius?

We should build a few bombers first. Lethal sea bombardment should take care of any invasions. If I calculated correctly, they cannot reach any of our cities in one turn due to the differential movement and lots of coastal tiles.

 

[Northern Pike]

Klarius's compromise of research to MoTrans seems acceptable, given the divided opinions on the team.

Investigation of Tientsin (Megalou): Good idea. I'd still rush the extra island cav now and do this next turn.

Berserk problem (Ronald): We might want to invest in one fighter, so that we can do recon missions in the sea between our west coast and Scandinavia. Then we should be able to sink any Viking ships with bombers before they reach us.

Vikings as allies (Megalou): Probably not, as you say.

No gifting with England (Megalou): I disagree strongly. We've established two things in this game: defeated foes don't give up multiple cities easily, and gifting works. A ten-city GAR with the English could make the difference--the very important difference--between our getting both Dover and Liverpool in the peace and our having to settle for one of them. Dover is on its own island, Liverpool would save us from having to take a foothold on that island from the Romans--they're both vital. As for the lost population in corrupt cities, it's too bad but I don't much care (plus which those cities grow quickly anyway). We're in the endgame now, and tactical considerations take precedence.

I'll just point out, since it's easy to overlook, that any plan for the English war has to include units airlifted into Troy's region to deal with Warwick.

Population not killed until defenders redlined (Megalou): I'm not sure this is the case with bombers, as opposed to artillery. But certainly the citizens-killed result is fairly rare, so your idea of ten-plane attack waves sounds about right.

 

[Megalou]

No gifting with England (Megalou): I disagree strongly. We've established two things in this game: defeated foes don't give up multiple cities easily, and gifting works. A ten-city GAR with the English could make the difference--the very important difference--between our getting both Dover and Liverpool in the peace and our having to settle for one of them. Dover is on its own island, Liverpool would save us from having to take a foothold on that island from the Romans--they're both vital. As for the lost population in corrupt cities, it's too bad but I don't much care (plus which those cities grow quickly anyway). We're in the endgame now, and tactical considerations take precedence.

Yes, you are right. I didn't have the map before me so I made a guesstimation. We definitely want both Dover and Liverpool in a treaty.

 

[klarius]

A few remarks about war with China and alliance with Rome.
- clean out the gold of China first by selling them music theory
- pay with gpt for the alliance to keep Rome on it. Don't just add it to a trade where they give gpt.
- I recommend to do the alliance with Rome linked to a peace renogation. By that they will declare on us automatically when they destroy China. That's exactly the point we want war with them (though the very first turn may be a bit hairy then ).
- China is very likely currently trading spices through our harbor. Take their spices away before the alliance.

Gifting cities to England:
I have the impression that there is a limit how much you can get in a peace treaty in C3C. I would say that a real massive gifting doesn't help more. So I would limit it to maybe 5 small cities with mainly foreign population. Together with the cities we capture that should be good enough, if the two cities we want are size 1 (may need some bombing). I think it's also beneficial if the capital is as far away from the cities you want as possible. So the complete north of England is a must.
One could even try to relocate the English capital to somewhere far away by gifting a bigger city and not retaking it.

10 bombers are really about the minimum you need for a successful run on a core city. 20 would be better . It would be really nice if we could get somebody to land a few units on the Viking island, to pull the units out of the cities. But I don't want to distract Rome and the others are on our Agenda soon. Maybe Japan, but they will be pretty hopeless after our current war is finished. Still they may land a spear or longbow and every little might help.

 

[Northern Pike]

I have the impression that there is a limit how much you can get in a peace treaty in C3C. I would say that a real massive gifting doesn't help more. So I would limit it to maybe 5 small cities with mainly foreign population. Together with the cities we capture that should be good enough, if the two cities we want are size 1 (may need some bombing).

Perhaps, but even if there is a limit, the question of how much pain an enemy civ needs to suffer to reach its limit is logically distinct. Gifting corrupt cities doesn't cost us too much however many we give away, and becoming cheap about it now strikes me as an extreme example of penny-wise, pound-foolish.

 

[Megalou]

Not only a citizen but also current shields are lost, which can mean a rather cheap aircraft is lost. So I will try to minimize that loss.

I should be finished around 8.30-9.00 tonight.

 

[Megalou]

- China is very likely currently trading spices through our harbor. Take their spices away before the alliance.

Have you gotten any sleep this week? The trade disappears automatically when we declare.

 

[Megalou]

If I mobilize, will Philadelphia be able to finish its university? We can get the 3500 beaker techs in 4 turns without it, so I'm thinking of changing it to bomber, losing ~40 shields.

 

[klarius]

The university build will be autochanged on mobilization.
But a question is also, if we want to mobilize. Does it really help currently. We should have a lot bombers in the mix first and they don't get the extra shields. But anyways an uni this late is quite questionable.