grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
I think he means don't trade banking till the AI has guns. I didn't read it as stopping research
SGOTM8 - Wacken
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
WackenOpenAir
Deity
dmanakho said:
Yes, i mean stopping research. The AI seems to research pretty fast actually. Rome that is at least.
We do not have 4 turn research. That means stopping research and acumulating gold does not cost us time, we can use the gold later to research faster with a deficit. Even if Rome does not end up researching for us, we will not lose time.
Astronomy is a favorite for the AI. I am not sure how the numbers from the sheet translate in % chance, but the number for Astronomy is about 3 times as high as other techs he can choose. I think that means we have a very big chance of them researching it. Following my feeling, i do think it means the chance for this is 3 times as high as another tech.
As said, we don't lose money on stopping research for a while. We don't risk losing time. When we stop however, we do have the chance to get another tech for free. We should take every chance for free techs available.
So please after banking, stop research until we have gunpowder so that we will be able to research chemistry while they do astronomy. In fact, i think they might very well have gunpowder before we have banking.
More chance that we will have to wait after Chemistry for them to finish Astronomy since then we both started research at the same time.
So i don't think the waiting is gonna be much of an issue this turnset yet, but it will be the next after chemistry.
And in reply to dman's other post:
Flipping chances aren't too bad i think, if we can get out their population, it is safe enough. If it is possible, it would be much nicer if we can capture the island city instead as that will provide us spices. Does anyone think that is reasonably possible ?
I agree with you building the marketplaces, not so much for the direct cash benefits, but certainly now that we have luxuries to benefit from it and hopefully more if we can get those spices.
Note that these spices are very important, providing at least 2 happiness to every city with marketplace for a value of 28 gpt. So we should pay some effords if that will get us spices. I think we should rushbuild some longbows to take that city.
please just build settlers in those captured cities, even though it will be a few turns delayed by lack of population.
IIRC, when i looked at the save file, there was 1 city that really required an aquaduct rushbuild. I advise to do a shortrush, not paying for the complete remainder for the aquaduct but just part of it.
In the future, troughout this game, i think we need to count rome as our research partners and expect only them to research for us. The rest is much too slow probably. I suggest not trying to get gpt from Rome, but try getting every single penny possible from all other civ's.
When we have new techs that we are able to trade with Rome, we of course need to keep our monopoly on those. For older techs, do not hesitate to sell them for some gpt to other civs even if it's way below the normal price.
If, by this method we ever gain more gold than we can spend on research (positive GPT with tax at 0) we could go and give rome some gpt to speed up their research for us.
I am totally not convinced on your research strategy.
We are doing 5 turns research now, as soon as we have markets and can drop lux slider to 10% (or better) we should be able to do 4 turn research until end of MAs with libraries built in Atlanta, 2nd core and some scientists in ICS towns.
If we believe Astronomy is priority No1 for AIs we can simply research chemistry after gunpowder and then Metallurgy without having to stop research.
This argument is however is purely academical and we will see how the situation rolls out as game progresses.
I agree on shortrushing Duct in 2nd core cities... There is one indeed that requires it fast... That's what i've suggested we need to do as well. Short rush duct and also library in Atlanta so it can start on market place.
We will have to short rush Market in Boston or hire a specialist there. That city has low shields and happiness issues.
We are doing 5 turns research now, as soon as we have markets and can drop lux slider to 10% (or better) we should be able to do 4 turn research until end of MAs with libraries built in Atlanta, 2nd core and some scientists in ICS towns.
If we believe Astronomy is priority No1 for AIs we can simply research chemistry after gunpowder and then Metallurgy without having to stop research.
This argument is however is purely academical and we will see how the situation rolls out as game progresses.
I agree on shortrushing Duct in 2nd core cities... There is one indeed that requires it fast... That's what i've suggested we need to do as well. Short rush duct and also library in Atlanta so it can start on market place.
We will have to short rush Market in Boston or hire a specialist there. That city has low shields and happiness issues.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
dmanakho said:
I don't think we are gonna have 4 turn research for those last techs. 5 at least, possibly 6. In Industrial, we will go to 8 or so for the starting techs.
Metallurgy is also an option yes, but i hoped to get that from the AI as well. That might be a bit too ambitious, dunno, but certainly we should not research astronomy.
WackenOpenAir said:
It all depends on how many scientists we will be able to hire in our corrupted cities. When i play my own emperor or demigod games i manage 4 turn research from around where we are now until the space ship launch non-stop. But our island isn't that big so we shall see how it goes... I am not very strong at math so i won't even try to calculate the outcome now.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
I will be home in an hour or so, then i will open the save file and the excel with tech costs and see if i can make a more educated guess.
EDIT will take a closer look after next turnset. It is not yet an issue, and after next turnset more info is available
I hope you do agree that we should not research Astronomy, so the question then remains if we should research Metallurgy or wait to see if the AI gets it for us. If we wait to let them get it, they have enough time to do it as we will be doing 3 techs meanwhile. I do not remember what preference they have to research this one.
Whatever we will come to agree on in this issue, it is not an issue for the coming turnset, this turnset we will get halfway chemistry at best.
If however you are right that our research will be so fast, then we need to hurry a lot more to prepare the cities for Hoover and ToE.
I think the scientists in ICS land will only kick in in industrial since first the cities should build settlers and workers. (Note that besides growing cities, we need an awfull lot of workers for building railroads soon)
EDIT will take a closer look after next turnset. It is not yet an issue, and after next turnset more info is available
I hope you do agree that we should not research Astronomy, so the question then remains if we should research Metallurgy or wait to see if the AI gets it for us. If we wait to let them get it, they have enough time to do it as we will be doing 3 techs meanwhile. I do not remember what preference they have to research this one.
Whatever we will come to agree on in this issue, it is not an issue for the coming turnset, this turnset we will get halfway chemistry at best.
If however you are right that our research will be so fast, then we need to hurry a lot more to prepare the cities for Hoover and ToE.
I think the scientists in ICS land will only kick in in industrial since first the cities should build settlers and workers. (Note that besides growing cities, we need an awfull lot of workers for building railroads soon)
I agree, next turnset is not affected...
I expect Offa to spend 2 turns to finish education another 5 turns for banking.
so he will be halfway on chemistry (I really do hope AIs will have Gunpowder by that time).
Quite boring turnset unless unexpeted war starts or something. Cash rush Ducts and Library in Atlanta. Keep shaving settlers of cities that reach pop 12 (NY and SF mostly at the moment until Washington finishes market). Cash rush settlers in Bejing and Athens. And 17 turns from now start another war against China to take control over all their cities on our land including that iron town. We will need iron for railroads and i hope we do have some coal here.
Do we want gift Vikings to our tech. level? They have big land and might start doing some research for us as well. I just don't like the idea having berserks across the channel. so we might keep them awkward for just that reason.
I expect Offa to spend 2 turns to finish education another 5 turns for banking.
so he will be halfway on chemistry (I really do hope AIs will have Gunpowder by that time).
Quite boring turnset unless unexpeted war starts or something. Cash rush Ducts and Library in Atlanta. Keep shaving settlers of cities that reach pop 12 (NY and SF mostly at the moment until Washington finishes market). Cash rush settlers in Bejing and Athens. And 17 turns from now start another war against China to take control over all their cities on our land including that iron town. We will need iron for railroads and i hope we do have some coal here.
Do we want gift Vikings to our tech. level? They have big land and might start doing some research for us as well. I just don't like the idea having berserks across the channel. so we might keep them awkward for just that reason.
I have it.
The plan is:
science
1 education in 2, trade for invention, give education to everyone near it.
2 banking and trade it for gunpowder, going to zero if necessary waiting for gunpowder
3 chemistry
war.
try to take Corinth, probably 3 cash rushed reg longbows: sounds pricey, and might not work. if there are 2 reg hoplites in Corinth (most likely), then 5 reg longbows would only have a 80% chance (4 vets would be slightly better). I actually think this is too risky, and that our cash is better spent elsewhere.
Are we sure we don't just want to build a town on the lux, or try to trade for it? I would value comments on this.
builds.
ICS Chinese lands.
in productive towns priorities are aqueducts, libraries, then markets. Universities come after markets I think.
More workers are needed for pop boosting and later for rails.
When should Washington start a prebuild: straight after market?
The plan is:
science
1 education in 2, trade for invention, give education to everyone near it.
2 banking and trade it for gunpowder, going to zero if necessary waiting for gunpowder
3 chemistry
war.
try to take Corinth, probably 3 cash rushed reg longbows: sounds pricey, and might not work. if there are 2 reg hoplites in Corinth (most likely), then 5 reg longbows would only have a 80% chance (4 vets would be slightly better). I actually think this is too risky, and that our cash is better spent elsewhere.
Are we sure we don't just want to build a town on the lux, or try to trade for it? I would value comments on this.
builds.
ICS Chinese lands.
in productive towns priorities are aqueducts, libraries, then markets. Universities come after markets I think.
More workers are needed for pop boosting and later for rails.
When should Washington start a prebuild: straight after market?
WackenOpenAir
Deity
We have a lot of things that qualify for shortrushing now:
-one or more aquaducts.
-A library
-Longbows to take spices.
-Settlers in ICS land.
We cannot spend all our income on shortrushing things, or our research will suffer dramatically. Lets try and estimate the cost and value of each of these projects.
-Longbows:
This is with the intend of capturing spices. Lets assume we want 3 longbows and a spear to attack the city. (Offa, what is the chance to beat 1 defender and how about 2?)
The reward is a luxury, that will be worth at least 2 happiness for every city with market. Every city will soon have a market. that makes 28 total happiness = 28 commerce per turn. Commerce is a little more valuable than gold or science as it is not enhanced by 50%, so this translates to at least 30gpt.
Before we can make these 30gpt, we need probably 3 or 4 longbows, a harbor and a worker to build the road. That is a total of around 200 shields (more or less depending if we want 3 or 4 bows) = 800 gold.
So this option means paying 800 to receive 30 gpt, starting 10 turns later. In the future the repayment might be more as it will be a 5th instead of a 4th luxury and it might very well mean the difference between 10 and 0% lux slider.
This is a tough and expensive one, but could be worth it. I strongly like the idea of an extra lux, but this cost scares me.
-Settlers in ICS land.
Each settler makes a city, each city pays us: 1 wealth, 3 science, 2 unit support for a total of 6 gold/science value. That is not including production.
Each turn we rushbuild costs 4 gold. 4 gold to receive 6. Sounds good to me. In most cases, half of the settler worker will be from normal production, so it won't be too costly an investment.
-Aquaducts in second core:
In a 4 production city, rushbuilding will cost 16 gold per turn build reduction.
Every turn build reduction alows for all citizens past 6 to be 1 turn earlier. all citizens past 6 are 6 citizens. so this is worth 6 citizen turns.
1 citizen turn pays us probably 1spt+3cpt before corruption making 6s+18c pt before corruption. After corruption this would be 4+12. That sounds like a close call.
However, the rushbuild will also allow all subsequent buildings to be ready earlier, Getting the lib and market earlier will improve commerce output by 50%, so that is probably 10 or so gpt worth.
This one pretty profitable.
-Library in Atlanta:
Instead of growing workers at size6, we are now gonna let it grow to size 12 before skimming workers, so it will not pay back much in that aspect i guess. It does help subsequent buildings comming in earlier. Most notably is the marketplace that will be needed for a lower lux slider.
It is hard to stick numbers to this without save file, but i'll make a little try (have to fill my time here at work, 7 more minutes):
size 12 makes ~35 commerce, leaving 25 after corruption. So that is 12 per turn from the earlier lib+market
If it will not cause us to build workers earlier and production is bigger than 3, this one is not at all gonna be profitable.
All together, i advise:
-Not to do the longbows, its too expensive, as offa sais, we must just build an extra town. The cost for the harbor and settler rush however are well worth it.
-Not to rush the Lib in atlanta unless it is needed to get the buildings done by size 12.
-To finish settlers in ICS land by rushing.
-To shortrush the aquaduct that really needs it.
I think we can do Uni before Newtons in Washington. That way we will not have Newtons too early, and the reward vs cost are the same for both of them (50% for 200 shields). Unless we fear an AI is gonna beat us to it.
But by all means, mine those plains asap.
-one or more aquaducts.
-A library
-Longbows to take spices.
-Settlers in ICS land.
We cannot spend all our income on shortrushing things, or our research will suffer dramatically. Lets try and estimate the cost and value of each of these projects.
-Longbows:
This is with the intend of capturing spices. Lets assume we want 3 longbows and a spear to attack the city. (Offa, what is the chance to beat 1 defender and how about 2?)
The reward is a luxury, that will be worth at least 2 happiness for every city with market. Every city will soon have a market. that makes 28 total happiness = 28 commerce per turn. Commerce is a little more valuable than gold or science as it is not enhanced by 50%, so this translates to at least 30gpt.
Before we can make these 30gpt, we need probably 3 or 4 longbows, a harbor and a worker to build the road. That is a total of around 200 shields (more or less depending if we want 3 or 4 bows) = 800 gold.
So this option means paying 800 to receive 30 gpt, starting 10 turns later. In the future the repayment might be more as it will be a 5th instead of a 4th luxury and it might very well mean the difference between 10 and 0% lux slider.
This is a tough and expensive one, but could be worth it. I strongly like the idea of an extra lux, but this cost scares me.
-Settlers in ICS land.
Each settler makes a city, each city pays us: 1 wealth, 3 science, 2 unit support for a total of 6 gold/science value. That is not including production.
Each turn we rushbuild costs 4 gold. 4 gold to receive 6. Sounds good to me. In most cases, half of the settler worker will be from normal production, so it won't be too costly an investment.
-Aquaducts in second core:
In a 4 production city, rushbuilding will cost 16 gold per turn build reduction.
Every turn build reduction alows for all citizens past 6 to be 1 turn earlier. all citizens past 6 are 6 citizens. so this is worth 6 citizen turns.
1 citizen turn pays us probably 1spt+3cpt before corruption making 6s+18c pt before corruption. After corruption this would be 4+12. That sounds like a close call.
However, the rushbuild will also allow all subsequent buildings to be ready earlier, Getting the lib and market earlier will improve commerce output by 50%, so that is probably 10 or so gpt worth.
This one pretty profitable.
-Library in Atlanta:
Instead of growing workers at size6, we are now gonna let it grow to size 12 before skimming workers, so it will not pay back much in that aspect i guess. It does help subsequent buildings comming in earlier. Most notably is the marketplace that will be needed for a lower lux slider.
It is hard to stick numbers to this without save file, but i'll make a little try (have to fill my time here at work, 7 more minutes):
size 12 makes ~35 commerce, leaving 25 after corruption. So that is 12 per turn from the earlier lib+market
If it will not cause us to build workers earlier and production is bigger than 3, this one is not at all gonna be profitable.
All together, i advise:
-Not to do the longbows, its too expensive, as offa sais, we must just build an extra town. The cost for the harbor and settler rush however are well worth it.
-Not to rush the Lib in atlanta unless it is needed to get the buildings done by size 12.
-To finish settlers in ICS land by rushing.
-To shortrush the aquaduct that really needs it.
I think we can do Uni before Newtons in Washington. That way we will not have Newtons too early, and the reward vs cost are the same for both of them (50% for 200 shields). Unless we fear an AI is gonna beat us to it.
But by all means, mine those plains asap.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
So, no further active war v Greece??
Corinth (yes grahamiam, it is the one on the island) is on a hill, so if it has only one hoplite then 3 reg longbows have just an 85% chance: unacceptably low for a man with my luck.
I think that capturing the Chinese town on the same island is a much better prospect: grass land, and probably just spears. I think a bit of patience is called for. In the meantime we can start on the harbor/road.
Wacken: "all citizens past 6 are 6 citizens. so this is worth 6 citizen turns": forgive me
, but could you please translate this into English. I am sure it contains an important truth, but apart from remembering that 666 is the number of the beast, I can't really understand.
Corinth (yes grahamiam, it is the one on the island) is on a hill, so if it has only one hoplite then 3 reg longbows have just an 85% chance: unacceptably low for a man with my luck.
I think that capturing the Chinese town on the same island is a much better prospect: grass land, and probably just spears. I think a bit of patience is called for. In the meantime we can start on the harbor/road.
Wacken: "all citizens past 6 are 6 citizens. so this is worth 6 citizen turns": forgive me
, but could you please translate this into English. I am sure it contains an important truth, but apart from remembering that 666 is the number of the beast, I can't really understand.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
We can take that one on our island if you ask me.Offa said:
Indeed.Offa said:
I just checked it. It is just outside our corruption circle, so yes that is possible. Still we would also need culture there for it to work though, and when others are gonna settle next to it, that plan might be ruined.Offa said:
I think it is best to settle a city on the hills NE of the spices, south of shantung. This is also just outside the corruption circle.
The city needs an aquaduct to grow past size 6.Offa said:Wacken: "all citizens past 6 are 6 citizens. so this is worth 6 citizen turns": forgive me
If we build an aquaduct 1 turn faster by rushing, that 7th citizen will be 1 turn earlier. So will the 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th.
So in total, rushing the aquaduct one turn makes 6 citizens appear 1 turn earlier each. Therefore, 6 "citizen turns" worth of production and commerce.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
By the way, a second colony on a second gem will enable us another luxury for trade. Pretty valuable trade stuff etc.
Certainly since i see gems only on our island.
Certainly since i see gems only on our island.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
If Offa plays tonight, I will probably play tonight too as I have to take a customer out tomorrow evening.
WackenOpenAir
Deity
For Offa, "tonight" is much later than it is for us.
Edit: Oh or not, every time i read your location "hanover" i think you are in germany
And like dman sais, i can play a bit more with excel etc
Edit: Oh or not, every time i read your location "hanover" i think you are in germany
And like dman sais, i can play a bit more with excel etc
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
ok, that's finedmanakho said:Dont' be in a hurry, we can skip a day. Lets give Wacken a chance to do a little wizardry with Excel spreadsheets
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