SGOTM8 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

We don't need a dual-core continent, we need a distributed system on multiple continents . That means we'll have a single core on our main island most of the time. So we don't need Courthouses everywhere in the moment, only where corruption is reasonably low. St.Louis can produce 2 uncorrupted shields out of 5, Buffalo still keeps producing 1 out of 7. Thus, to me, St.Louis is the border of the moderate corruption area. Except from Buffalo and maybe Miami I'd refrain building CH in the northern region.

In your view of our world, where do you think the Forbidden Palace should be built and why?

 

[bluebox]

In your view of our world, where do you think the Forbidden Palace should be built and why?

There won't be much fighting going on in our home continent in comparison to what lies before us. Greece isn't such a difficult enemy in regard to size and city count and we have just a few elite horsies. If we get this notorious leader in the fight with Greece we might build our FP with him, that means on our home continent.

But to me it's much more likely we get a leader on another continent (if ever ) and I wouldn't hesitate to rush a FP with him as a jump start for a new core on the invaded continent, keeping our old core intact for a longer period of time. That would be one of the best scenarios because we could use the palace jump for yet another continent and would spare us to jump the palace one time.

Therefore a FP on our home continent is not where I want to build it first and formost.

It's a pity Nagasaki so in danger to a flip (Mapstat tells propability is about 6% now). Maybe we should try a get a settler from it as fast a possible to found another city of our own there. With Nagasaki - or a Nagasaki settler - we could get the door open to that eastern continent.

 

[leif erikson]

There won't be much fighting going on in our home continent in comparison to what lies before us. Greece isn't such a difficult enemy in regard to size and city count and we have just a few elite horsies. If we get this notorious leader in the fight with Greece we might build our FP with him, that means on our home continent.

But to me it's much more likely we get a leader on another continent (if ever ) and I wouldn't hesitate to rush a FP with him as a jump start for a new core on the invaded continent, keeping our old core intact for a longer period of time. That would be one of the best scenarios because we could use the palace jump for yet another continent and would spare us to jump the palace one time.

Therefore a FP on our home continent is not where I want to build it first and formost.

Fair enough. Here is the problem I see with this strategy. In order to take another island, we first need to build units there since we can't transport them. To build units in a corrupt town requires Gold, and lots of it. The only way that I see that we can generate that gold is by making our home island as corruption free as possible. That means that we may have to set up a two core home island, if we can. If we do not get a leader in a war with Greece, then we *may* have to consider building a FP near our original core so that we "jump the palace". I think that no matter what we do, the FP needs to be on our original home island because once built, it can not be moved. The palace is mobile. I hope this makes some sense.
Athough I would like to hear other opinions on this.

It's a pity Nagasaki so in danger to a flip (Mapstat tells propability is about 6% now). Maybe we should try a get a settler from it as fast a possible to found another city of our own there. With Nagasaki - or a Nagasaki settler - we could get the door open to that eastern continent.

Yes it is a pity. The problem is that without a Harbor, the citizen will revolt currently, so it can not grow. I started a Spear to act as MP but it really needs a Harbor. Then we could build units there.

 

[bluebox]

Nice discussion, thanks, Leif! I'll give my idea another try:

With space for about 30 cities and each city producing let's say ~4g with 2 to 4 taxmen we get a gain in income of about 120gpt from those cities just existing on the map. Not to forget each adding free support for a unit.

We might get more gpt from the classic fully fledged dual core setup but I suspect it will need more turns to build all those courthouses, marketplaces, and last but not least a FP and - without a leader - a palace jump within our mainland.

I think once we get a foothold on another continent we can start to gradually leave our homeland behind and only use it for free unit support.

While I write this it comes to my mind that I see the greed strategy - as smart as I think it is in our current situation - should only act a booster to lift us - or more precise: our production core - to another continent. Japan and Rome will be tough opponents with coniderable size and good economies (at least Rome). Once we are finished with them we'll earn our gold over there to take over England and the Vikings.

IIRC not jumping the palace was the major drawback of the X-Team in the Russian SGOTM. Let's avoid this strategy loop hole this time of focussing too much on our starting area and get off our homeland once we have a reasonable foothold over there.

If we get a leader in the war against Greece I totally agree to build the FP immediately. But the whole process of building up city improvements, hand-build the FP in the current core, jump the palace to the north and then earn the money to invade Japan just takes too long.

Maybe I'm talking rubbish here but, well that's how I see it in the moment.

 

[bluebox]

Just an idea about Nagasaki: We could build a worker there, join him to the city again when it's again one turn before size 2 and rush a settler. The city will riot but we get the settler IBT. (We need to be in REP then).

 

[DJMGator13]

If we lose Nagasaki we can always just repeat the city gifting and war declaration. I'd not worry too much about that city until we're in a better position to start amassing an offisland military.

I think leif is right about the dual core on our home island. By keeping the FP on our island our larger cities will be around the FP and palace providing us more income. I also like bluebox's idea to ICS our corrupt regions. We need gold and lots of it to be able to buy an army.

Again let's not get too focused on the ROM/JPN island as the next target. England may be easier to conquer and would give us more ICS cities for gold. Besides I'd really like to get ROM & JPN beating on each other to reduce their numbers.

When are we revolting or have we? Once we revolt we could research faster but we do need to start our treasury.

I just worked a 12+ hour day and the rest of the week won't be much better. So don't be surprised if you don't hear from me for a few days.

Good luck Willow

@Capt - only 1 to go for 1000. Make sure you get a screenie of it.

 

[leif erikson]

Nice discussion, thanks, Leif! I'll give my idea another try:

With space for about 30 cities and each city producing let's say ~4g with 2 to 4 taxmen we get a gain in income of about 120gpt from those cities just existing on the map. Not to forget each adding free support for a unit.

Yes, I am enjoying the discussion as well and this is an intriguing idea. To generate Gold through ICS and taxmen. Could you make a dotmap of what that would look like so I can calculate th eshield and population cost of doing that and compare it to courthouses? That would be an interesting comparison.

We might get more gpt from the classic fully fledged dual core setup but I suspect it will need more turns to build all those courthouses, marketplaces, and last but not least a FP and - without a leader - a palace jump within our mainland.

Actually, I wasn't thinking about jumping the palace within our current island but building the FP somewhere near the old core to keep it productive for when we jump the palace to some other remote location, whichever island it may end up on.

I think once we get a foothold on another continent we can start to gradually leave our homeland behind and only use it for free unit support.

While I write this it comes to my mind that I see the greed strategy - as smart as I think it is in our current situation - should only act a booster to lift us - or more precise: our production core - to another continent. Japan and Rome will be tough opponents with coniderable size and good economies (at least Rome). Once we are finished with them we'll earn our gold over there to take over England and the Vikings.

Just a thought on this, it may be advantagious to us, at emperor, to keep the Romans and Japanese healthy and researching so we keep moving up the tech tree. Then, when the time comes, we can ally with one or the other and clean house. In this case, I am thinking that starting with th eweaker civs will get us more land easier and when we get to Japan and Rome, we can simply destroy cities and forget the flip chances as it is conquest anyway.

IIRC not jumping the palace was the major drawback of the X-Team in the Russian SGOTM. Let's avoid this strategy loop hole this time of focussing too much on our starting area and get off our homeland once we have a reasonable foothold over there.

Actually, the l;ack of a leader caused us to be unable to build a FP timely enough. Perhaps we could have remedied this by a palace jump but ....

If we get a leader in the war against Greece I totally agree to build the FP immediately. But the whole process of building up city improvements, hand-build the FP in the current core, jump the palace to the north and then earn the money to invade Japan just takes too long.

Maybe I'm talking rubbish here but, well that's how I see it in the moment.

I think we agree more than we disagree. But the key always seems to be to get those ideas out so we can weigh them and see where they take us.

BTW - iirc Nagasaki is still size 1. Once the Spear completes, we'll have an MP to get it to size 2. Again, a Harbor will be needed to get it to any size higher and be productive. However, I assume it'll flip long before we can get there!

EDIT - Crossed with Gator, but I think we've said about the same thing without even reading each other's post, is this a wavelength things or...

 

[DJMGator13]

EDIT - Crossed with Gator, but I think we've said about the same thing without even reading each other's post, is this a wavelength things or...

I never realized that those vioces in my head were from The Mad Viking

 

[leif erikson]

I never realized that those vioces in my head were from The Mad Viking

Its only a movie, Its only a movie!!!!

 

[leif erikson]

Hey Capt.

This 1000th post will be a huge event!

The buildup is killing me...

Can't wait

 

[WillowBrook]

Almost forgot - revolting to Republic. Given our few cities and many units, it's probably not a good idea during my turnset. But feel free to contradict.

I'll plan on researching engineering.

And until I'm given some better ideas, I'll leave the courthouse cities working on them; they can be switched later to other builds. Or do we want some of them to become settlers? ICS is the best solution for unit support in Republic.

I'll play late this afternoon or this evening, though I may not get the game posted until tomorrow (sorry about delying us further!)

 

[Mistfit]

Congrats to WillowBrook for becomming a HoF QuarterMaster

 

[Gyathaar]

Congrats to WillowBrook for becomming a HoF QuarterMaster

Grats
I really should finish the two games I need to become one too.. both have been halffinished since may or so..

 

[leif erikson]

First, congrats, on your becoming a Quartermaster!!

Almost forgot - revolting to Republic. Given our few cities and many units, it's probably not a good idea during my turnset. But feel free to contradict.

I'll plan on researching engineering.

I think that this is the best course for now.

And until I'm given some better ideas, I'll leave the courthouse cities working on them; they can be switched later to other builds. Or do we want some of them to become settlers? ICS is the best solution for unit support in Republic.

I think this will all depend upon what happens in the Greek campaign. If you are fortunate enough to produce a leader (please, please, begging), then we will prolly build the FP. If you get the Greeks pretty well finished and no leader, time for ICS and taxmen, imho.

Then we'll have to decide if we build a FP near our core or wait for a leader to build it on some other island.

EDIT - BTW Willow, please keep an eye out for contact with the Vikings. It would be nice to have their world map, then we would qualify for the first spoiler. Never mind we would know where they are and can plan for their demise as well.

 

[Capt Buttkick]

Hey Capt.

This 1000th post will be a huge event!

The buildup is killing me...

Can't wait

Not all that memorable in itself. I hope you keep reading the thread, though. Cause I found it pretty nailbiting stuff towards the end...

Again I must apologize for not being very active in this thread. I've been busy at work and seem to spend an awful lot of the little spare time I have writing about Jeeves and Brennus

 

[WillowBrook]

here's the save

Our leader luck has changed!!!!
Washington is sitting in Detroit, waiting to build the FP at a place of the team's choosing.

Summary:
-The Greeks are down to two towns and we are at peace.
-We have Feudalism, and can trade it to the English for Monotheism if we throw in about 100g. Engineering is due in 2 turns.
-I have a settler at my proposed location for the forbidden palace, but the team can decide if we might want to build it elsewhere.
-We've contacted the Vikings, and they are uninteresting.
-Nagasaki defected, and I had to pay Caesar a small bribe to leave us alone.

Here's the turnlog:
Turn 0: 150 bc
Looked around, pressed enter

ibt:
Japanese galley sailing by Nanking, barb galley somewhere I didn’t catch
Chicago: horse => market

Turn 1: 130 bc
Move troops toward Greek border.
Establish embassy in Athens. Good – 4 regular hoplites. And building a library.
I investigate Sparta. One regular hoplite and a second to be completed ibt.
10 horsies will amass on Sparta’s border, the rest on Athens, with both stacks ready to be diverted to Thermopylae.
Lizzie hasn’t met the Vikings

ibt:
Caesar demands 21g and our territory map. Since we have two towns undefended next to four of his, I give in.
Antium completes the Great Wall.

Turn 2: 110 bc
I trade WM with Alex to see if he has any off-shore holdings. He doesn’t.
Alex is already at war with Rome and Japan.
I demand monotheism from him. He laughs at me. So I declare.

Battle for Sparta:
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/4 horse
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 1/4 horse, capture of Sparta

move troops into position to attack Athens and Thermopylae next turn
note that there are purple borders just off the coast of Seattle!
mm some towns to be growing, as we will soon have another lux

ibt:
both warriors on northern mountains die to Greek swords, but the elite one takes out a sword first
the barb galley is near our Japanese outpost
Philadelphia: horse => market
Seattle: horse => market
SF: horse => market
Rome now has…engineering!?!

Turn 3: 90 bc
to continue to research eng or not? I decide to continue.

battle for Athens:
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 1/4 horse
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 2/3 hop
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 1/3 hop
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/5 horse
4/4 horse v. 2/3 hop => 1/4 horse
4/4 horse v. 3/3 sword => 2/3 sword (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 2/3 sword => 4/4 horse
5/5 horse v. 1/3 hop => 4/5 horse, capture of Athens

3 units are outside Athens
4/4 horse v. 4/4 sword => 3/4 sword (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 3/3 sword => 2/4 horse
4/4 horse v. 3/4 sword => 1/4 horse
5/5 horse v. 3/3 archer => 4/5 horse, AND WASHINGTON!!!!!!

battle for Thermopylae:
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 2/3 hop (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 2/3 hop (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 2/3 hop => 1/4 horse
4/4 horse v. 2/3 hop => 2/3 hop (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 2/3 hop => 2/4 hop
4/4 horse v. 2/4 hop => 1/4 horse
4/4 horse v. 3/3 sword => 2/4 horse, capture of town and a settler

battle for Xinjan:
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/3 hop
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 1/3 hop
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/3 hop (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 2/4 hop
and I’m out of horsies in striking range (I thought there’d only be one hoplite in there)

Now what do I do with Washington? He can go to Detroit for now.
I note that engineering is down to 9 turns.
And Lizzie has not yet encountered Ragnar.

ibt:
Japanese galleys move up the east coast of Old China

Turn 4: 70 bc
take out a Greek sword losing a horse in the process (the winning horse will likely be lost ibt)
troops healing
Alex won’t talk yet, Lizzie has monotheism.
Lizzie requires 30g to trade WM – she must know something (tho it’s not Ragnar yet)
Well, her knowledge is boring (northern waters), and I trade around her map and recover all 2 gold that Rome and Japan have.
Tokugawa has extra silk but won’t part with it for any price.

I decide that the corrupt towns now on courthouses should be building settlers, and switch builds accordingly. I leave St. Louis, but waste 5 shields in Buffalo. This settler can found the FP city, subject to the team’s approval.

ibt:
sword-killing horse dies by the sword, as predicted
Washington: market => settler
Buffalo: settler => settler
English and Japanese start the Hanging Gardens, Kyoto completes TGL (darn!)

Turn 5: 50 bc
lose two horses taking out the horse-killing sword
troops still healing
silly Alex won’t talk
I realize I can lower the lux rate to 20% (wines still not hooked up – but will be next turn)

ibt:
Greeks switch to The Hanging Gardens!
And the English complete it. Bah!

Turn 6: 30 bc
with wines hooked up, I can lower lux to 0.
Alex is still in denial.
Toku wants wines, dyes, all my gold, and 3 gpt for his silks. forget it.
Caesar, already taking in dyes, wants the same with 6gpt. no way. but he likes us now!

ibt:
Washington: settler => horse

Turn 7: 10 bc
What’s with Alex? You’d think I was taking his cities or something.

battle for Pharsalos
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/3 hop
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 2/4 horse
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/3 hop (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 2/3 hop (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 2/3 hop => 2/3 hop (horse retreats)
4/4 horse v. 2/3 hop => 2/3 hop (horse retreats) (yes, identical to last attack)
4/4 horse v. 2/3 hop => 2/4 horse, town and worker captured

ibt:
Nagasaki finally succumbs to Japanese cultural pressure.

Turn 8: 10 ad
I whip a spear in Sparta now that resistance is over.
I decide to wait until next turn to take Xinjian

ibt:
Roman settler pair walks through one of our off-shore towns
Beijing: spear => settler
Sparta: spear => settler
Houston: settler => settler
The Romans start Sun-Tzu’s. They just got Feudalism. And they're furious with us again after a brief puzzling spell of politeness.

Turn 9: 30 ad
Alex still won’t talk

Second battle for Xinjian
4/4 horse v. 4/4 hop => 3/4 hop, horse retreats
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/3 hop, horse retreats
4/4 horse v. 3/3 hop => 3/4 hop
4/4 horse v. 3/4 hop => 2/4 hop, horse retreats
4/4 horse v. 3/4 hop => 3/4 hop, horse retreats
4/4 horse v. 3/4 hop => 1/4 hop
4/4 horse v. 2/4 hop => 3/5 hop
4/4 horse v. 3/5 hop => 1/5 hop
4/4 horse v. 1/4 hop => 3/4 horse
And I’m out of nearby horses!!!!!!

ibt:
nothing of note

Turn 10: 50 ad
The Greeks will talk!
But Alex won’t give both mono and feudalism, so I’ll take Xinjian first.

Third Battle for Xinjian
4/4 horse v. 3/5 hop => 2/5 hop
4/4 horse v. 2/5 hop => 2/5 hop
4/4 horse v. 2/5 hop => 2/5 hop (horse retreats)
3/4 horse v. 2/5 hop => 2/5 hop (horse retreats)
This is ridiculous!!!!

Enough of war, on to diplomacy. finally Ragnar is met with! and all but Toku know him.
Well, since I won’t get two techs from Alex, I give peace for Xinjian, feudalism, and contact (and WM and 4g), in hopes that Lizzie will give me mono for feud.
He lost a town in the north to an unknown assailant.
Lizzie will give mono for feud and 100g. I wait for team input.
I sell Ragnar contact with Japan for WM and all his gold (83)

 

[WillowBrook]

Thanks for the Quartermaster congrats, everyone!

While it's tempting to try for more HOF games, I think I'll be giving up non-SGOTM civ for a while - too many real-life things calling for my time. But I'll keep my toes wet with this game.

 

[DJMGator13]

Who is this fellow named Washington? It's been a long time since Xteam has seen one of those.

Nicely played.

 

[leif erikson]

Excellent work Willow!!

And a LEADER as well, you can work miracles...

Looks like our skilled Horsies were simply too must for those Hoppies after all!

Offa's City Capture Simulation works pretty well, did a great job of predicting what would happen at Athens. Of course Willow's skill also had much to do with it I'm sure.

Roster:
Capt. - UP (if we can drag him away from Brennus and Jeeves)
Nemesis - On Deck (hope he is OK?)
Gator
Bluebox
Leif
Willow - Just played and got a Leader, whatever that is!

EDIT - As I understand it, we are now qualified to post our story in the first spoiler thread. I don't think we are allowed to peek until we post. If anyone wants to take a shot, please post that you'll try. If no one does, then I try it this weekend when I have some more time.

 

[leif erikson]

I love double (and triple) posts! :shakehead

@Willow - I assume you are proposing the place the settler stands north of Detroit for the Forbidden Palace?

I would like to make a case for Detroit as the FP site. Our core is set up at distance 4.x so the first shield around the FP will be at 4.x. If we use Detroit, it will encompass both Athens and Beijing as ring 1 type cities (please see piccies below). In the piccie, all cities built within the ring of ones will be treated as a ring 1 city. Both Athens and Beijing have good terrain around them and some resources that we can use to grow and produce gold. If we build where Willow proposes, both of those city site would fall outside the shield.
EDIT - Correction, Beijing would be within the shield.

Also, we need to back to war with Greece because we must have Corinth and the Iron supply there.

EDIT - Ooops, I forgot that I added some planning cities just to show that we *could* potentially put more cities there. I left extra space around Athens and Beijing as they have more potetial to grow. Once this is done we can ICS the rest of the island for Gold production.