Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by R3dKnight, Sep 30, 2010.
That is until you unlocked Longbowmen.
I haven't played everyone yet, Songhai felt really powerful. All that extra gold from barb camps is great in the early game. Buy key buildings, maritime allies, units, whatever. And the UU, Mandeleku cav is just awesome. These can rush in and take a city or two before your opponent even has its troops set up in defensive positions. Or if they shift to counter your main infantry/seige force, sneak some Mandelekus around the flank and rapidly take some undefended cities. The embarked defense bonus is just gravy in case you need a late game invasion.
Alright, Aztec for cultural victory is dumb. I don't even know why I started a game based around the concept, since the most cursory examination reveals the futility of the enterprise.
Right now in the medieval era units are giving me 3-5 culture. I've heard it scales up to like 10 culture, but even at that rate: killing 2 units per turn, every turn (pretty goddamn optimistic even with Deity AI unitspam) that's about as good as 1 cultural city state. Wow.
Basically what I'm saying is: the aztec UA is junk and needs to be buffed...doubled maybe or more.
You could get a decent amount of culture by farming barb camps, but even then it'd be easier to just ally with a city state.
That said, the Aztecs are similar to France in that their UA at least enables them to unlock alot of policies early, though even then their ability is strictly worse than Ancien Regime.
Ability needs buffing, the scaling isn't enough.
I always treated Aztec ability as a replacement for a Monument and the Stonehenge to get Aristocracy early and maybe some Honor on top of it rather than a game-long boost that'd allow cultural victory.
Kill Barbs, kill your immediate competition, earn first few policies, then just run along like you had no UA... Pretty much the same goes for France.
Wouldn't it make more sense for Aztecs to get a lot of Warriors up early, get up some Professional Army action, and then mass upgrade to Swordsmen once the tech hits?
The Aztec UA gives enemy base strength/2 worth of culture per kill.(ie. GDR gives 75 culture).
With that said, it doesn't need a buff. They already have the best UB, and a very strong UU.
Yeah. I mean going for a cultural victory with Aztec was a roleplay/fun idea, not a serious strat.
I suppose it does significantly increase the speed of getting the first 3 or so policies, beyond which it's pretty marginal, but early game advantage does snowball. So maybe not completely terrible.
The best UB? It's good but there are some pretty amazing UBs...Paper Maker and Bazaar come to mind.
The UU at first glace is pretty "meh" but the fact that the promotion carries on into forever is pretty money, I agree.
Thanks for the formula on the culture gain. Hrm so modern age stuff is gonna give you 20-25 culture per kill, lot better than I expected. Maybe I can maybe pull of this aztec culture victory I've started...
Paper Maker's effect is transparent. But all that does is make it overrated. The net gain from a Paper Maker is 3 gold. Ho hum.
If you look at the screenshot in the previous page of this thread, Floating Gardens is giving the food equivelent of 3 irrigated/fertilized farms. You can turn 3 tiles into trading posts and still match the growth of other civs. 3 trading posts adds 6 gold(and 3 science with rationalism). Floating Gardens also has 1 less maintenance than its base building. Net gain is 7 gold.
But you don't get science and great scientist out of it.
The comparison can't be that straightforward because Floating Gardens is a percent food gain. Also Paper Maker's +4 gold is filtered through at least Market, and possibly Bank later on.
The true gain from Paper Maker is maintenance-free Science. This means that China can tech, GS-farm, and not have to make Markets to compensate. It saves them one building in every city early on.
Floating Garden's benefit is way off in another direction. Not directly comparable.
Getting science and scientist specialists is a basic function of the library, not the paper maker.
My shoes are pink. Wait, what were we talking about? At what point do we stop putting forward irrelevant statements?
You cannot rate UB's based on how they compare individually to the basic building. Doesn't work. You must compare to how they fit in the overall scheme of the game. Same goes for UUs.
Paper Makers are science buildings that save you an econ building early, then add income later. Floating Gardens are powerful second tier food producers. They are not directly comparable.
Irrelevant statements? Excuse you.
As for everything else you said, almost everything in this game is directly comparable because everything has a direct effect on another aspect of the game mechanics. Gold can affect production, which can affect science, gold, and food. Food affects population, which affects science, gold, and worked tiles. Etc. Theyre only uncomparable if you place them in a simplistic vacuum.
Comparing end-results means that you are comparing them indrectly, not directly. For instance, in your comparison, you end up with 3 more base gold, but something like 3 or 4 less science, and no capability for making GSs. You can't discount this as a capability of the Paper Maker vis-a-vis the Floating Garden because we aren't similarly subtracting 2 food from the output of the Floating Garden, which is the base output of a Water Mill.
A food bonus compounds on other food bonuses which makes that particular Civ very powerful in terms of growth. For that Civ, Colosseum is more powerful because it can leverage the extra happiness sooner to offset the maintenance.
For China, Paper Makers are nearly universally good for making everywhere because they make free Science and money, and save production in your not having to make Markets for Colosseums. Also, don't need population to offset the cost as much, and don't need as much happiness as a result. Having PMs everywhere means that National College is easier to access, and Universities are open for nearly all cities.
So now, we're comparing a big-growing Civ placing a premium on happiness against a rich Civ with a strong base in Science. Which is better?
If you really want to get into the nitty gritty, we'd also have to consider that Paper Maker opens very early off of a tech you nearly always want early as well - writing. Also, lower hammer cost, and no need for intermediate buildings and other location requirements.
I'll concede that calling the end-results an indirect effect is more apt.
You assume I added +2 food from the base Water Mill when explaining the advantages of the Floating Gardens. Incorrect.
I've only talked about the 15% food bonus and -1 maintenance.
The Floating Gardens has another bonus, but its too situational to matter.
You assume the library and water mill are mutually exclusive. Incorrect. You can have both. And since the library's basic function requires population to make use of it, the water mill makes the library even better.
You assume happiness is a premium. Incorrect. Happiness is abundant and now that I'm more familiar with the mechanics, I can't grow fast enough to shake off excess happiness.
Funny. In the 2 games (prince/king - huge map - continents) I have played so far the Iroquois have been dominating with an expansionist tactic. They seem to roll over the other AIs and plant tons of citys and still able to keep the gold rolling in.. lots of gold. Seen them with 15k+ gold. No idea how they keep happiness up, but seems like the AI actually "knows" how to play them better than many of the other civs.
China: Just finished a Huge World map and they are great. The Cho-Ku-Nu double attack effectivly doubles your back line.
They are devastating, several teamed together with a 45% GG in toe destroys AI armies before they even get to attack. I even kept a few around later in the game to hit barbs/injured units and crump cities.
The 1UPT works in their favour, generally only a few units are within range at any one time and they get focused on until the next poor sod steps up.
Its a little bit of a Starcraft term but the Japanese UU combined with the Japanese UA of never losing attack strength based on damage creates a great timing push because by that time I've useualy always had a good stock of iron and had cities that can pump them out. they are just devastating to anything less then them(techwise) and they can take out cities fairly easily in the early to mid-late game.
After you've done enough conquering and collected a goody amount of Puppets I GA'ed my GG's and bought courthouse's for all of my captured cities and just had to connect all of them and after getting some good gold and tech I slungshot them to infantry and just kept rolling across the globe.
Hav't ever really used the Zero anyone know what I should expect them to be like?
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