Ships in the Age of Sail: What to do with Caravel, Carrack, Galleon and more

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

1. Should Caravel remains as generic melee naval unit? or shifted to naval recon (and raiders) instead? (or even exists as generic unit at all?)
Most of the time, Caravel shown in game is more or less used scaled-down carracks. i'm not sure if caravels are actually looked like that but for Portuguese who invented and evolved this type of light sailer? no.

In most civ games. Caravels are based on 'Carrack' riggings. .. 'Light Carracks' to be precise
well since Civ2 where it was first introduced (in Civ 1 it was called just 'Sail' and it also means anything that coems before and slightly after (including Carracks and Galleons) )

Caravel (Civ2)

The Caravel is a sea unit in Civilization II. The caravel was a small sailing ship with three or four masts, a broad bow, and a high, narrow stern.. Though often used as a warship, the caravel could also carry just over 100 metric tons of cargo. Caravels were commonly used by the Spanish and the...

civilization.fandom.com

Caravel (Civ3)

Back to the list of units The Caravel is a sea-going vessel that may safely traverse coast and sea squares. If it ends a turn in an ocean square, it is in danger of sinking. Carrack for the Portuguese. The caravel was a small sailing ship with three or four masts, a broad bow, and a high, narrow...

civilization.fandom.com

Caravel (Civ6)

Back to List of units in Civ6 The Caravel is a Renaissance Era naval melee unit in Civilization VI. It upgrades from the Galley (or its replacements). Attributes: Has Sight of 3. Naval melee units, unless under Harald Hardrada, are the class of units with the most limited scope of use. On land...

civilization.fandom.com

Civ 2, 3 And here in Civ 6

Do you consider one Caravel or mini carracks?

^ Loaned from Humankind. a comparision between transport caravel and combat carracks

There are however only two games that presented this thing correctly.

Caravel (Civ4)

The Caravel is replaced by the following unique units: Carrack (Portugal) The following units can be upgraded to Caravels: Trieme This small and fast ship can explore oceans and rival territory. Caravels can transport one special unit - Scout, Explorer, Spy, Missionary, or Great Person. The...

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Caravel (Civ5)

Back to the list of units Fast Renaissance Era naval melee unit. Upgrades from the Trireme. Common abilities: Extra Sight (1) Withdraw Before Melee (Unit may withdraw when faced with melee attack) In the early Renaissance Era naval and orientation technology finally develop enough to allow...

civilization.fandom.com

Civ 4 and 5, the 4th is Caravela Redonda (beefed up caravel with big hull about the size of light galleon, big enough to carry some broadside guns but still as fast as it has been), the 5th is Caravela Latina. the first of its kind,

I'm not sure if a caravel can have forecastle like cogs and carrakcs?

What are 'Caravels' as Portuguese built and viewed?
1. a sailship that may also be called 'boat', built with smooth sided plankings, with no forecastle but with aftercastle. also has to be seaworthy even in rough waters
2. uses axial rudder steerings. through steers can be as simple as a hand tiller, or with complex steering mechanisms, either of lever, or steering wheel.
3. two masts at minimum, either entirely latin rigged or the front sails square rigged. but not without latin riggings, in fact Lateens are primary sails used in caravels. while carracks have more square sails.)

^ Working life sized replica of the first caravel. at the most accurate description.

Caravela Redonda. the latest in evolutions, some is no less different to carrack but AFAIK not Portuguese standard, the Pure portuguese designs only have one mast (either the first or second to the front) with square riggings, and all else latin rigged.

Square-rigged caravel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The truly militarized caravel is called 'Caravela Armada' and strong enough to carry standard broadside guns, though not as much as carracks or galleons. but it was built to be 'cruisers'.

^ Here

Though in North Europe. some ships that looks very much like carrack or sometimes labelled as 'cog' is being known as Kraweel. I'm not sure if this one can be called 'caravel' (as the word 'Kraweel' is originated from) or it is carrack and mislabled at best (since shipbuilders of the North Atlantic doesn't know what caravel really is or what?)

2. What to do with Carracks and Galleon? since Carracks seemed to rule the sea in 14th Century and presented most of naval evolutions since Cogs and Holkes (and was evolved from, and Genoese used one against English Fleet in the Siege of La Rochelle (of the Hundread Years War, not of 17th Century) and it worked against English Cogs (that won Sluys some 80 years ago), unfortunately with galleon came to be shortly after, Carracks lost its place to galleon in all types and categories. both as light 'cruisers' and heavy 'ships of the line'.
the Wiki entry seemed to say that carracks are used well into 17th Century and appeared to phased out in the same time as galleon, which AFAIK what the Enlightenment Era warships are evolved from, with flat decks and no castellations fore and aft.... what's later called 'frigate built' and this included 'Ships of the Line' (something Firaxis never likes despite historical significants).

^ A photograph from Portuguese Museum of Thailand, exhibits a ship labelled as 'Nau or Carrack'. very clear cut how Portuguese distinces Caravels and Carracks despite the size can be the same. carrack of this size has no problems navigating rivers as long as it is wide. it must be this kind of Naus that also sailed Amazon upstream. and also this kind that French explorers explored Missisipi all the way from estuary in Gulf of Mexico into what's now Chicago, well into Great Lakes.

How to represent 'Cruisers' galleon and 'SoTL Galleons' since one exists in mid or late 16th Century, and are primary warships of Both Spanish Armada and English Armada that followed. or should 'Carracks' be 'Melee / Cruiser' type and 'Galleon' be 'Ranged/ Battleship' type?

Then again. baley anyone got it right at a time.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Addendum: Just play Civ6 as Portugal (John III) and this is what ingame Nau (Carrack) looks like

Too similiar to Caravel.

 

[Evie]

Carrack and caravel were largely not distinguished by rigging (of which the caravel had many varieties, including both square and lateen sails, and two or three masts, it's generally the size of the ships, and especially the much larger forecastle and sterncastle that set carracks apart from caravels.

Which the game actually got right: the size difference is made plain by the much heavier sailing rig of the Nao, and the much higher castles on the nao versus the low castles of the caravel.

If anything, the Humankind caravel is the one that's very wrong with a much taller sterncastle not at all adapted to the ship.

In gameplay terms, yes, melee is the wrong place for them, but I don't know that there IS a right place, so I'll accept caravel as a fighting ship.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

The problem is that while most earlier (European) ships were Melee in that they were basically platforms for soldiers to attack other ships from with melee or short-ranged weapons, once heavy naval guns were available All regular warships became Ranged types.

And compounding the problem is that the hull/ship types like Caravel and Carrack started out as Melee (carrying archers and melee troops) but later were converted to carrying cannon. The earliest Caravels were really too small to carry heavy guns, but the Portugeuse Naus were heavy enough and later Caravels, as stated, were hard to tell from Carracks in size. Carracks started as melee ships (like the Tudor Carrack Mary Rose, (built 1511 CE) which carried a few heavy guns but also several hundred troops with pikes, halberds, bills and longbows) but Carracks also mounted 'ship-killing' artillery, like the Micheal built at the same time as the Rose, with 27 "great guns" mounted mostly broadside.

The Galleon (first mentioned as a pure sailing ship in 1530 CE), though, was the first hull-type generally planned to carry big guns from the start. Even the earliest of them, built in the late 16th century, carried 30 - 50 large cannon compared to the poor little Mary Rose, which carried only 9, and the 'race built' Galleon hulls invented by John Hawkins starting around 1570 could out-sail and out-maneuver both Galleons and older Carracks while shooting them to pieces - the Foresight, the first of the breed, carried 28 heavy guns while weighing just 300 tons - less than a third the size of the Great Ships but more heavily armed and faster.

All of which means, to keep things separate, I suggest the Caravel be reserved for what it was originally: a Scouting-type ships designed for long distance voyages but not particularly well-armed. Later and larger Caravels were almost indistinguishable from Carracks, so make Carrack a separate type, and the last Melee sailing warship.

The Galleon IF we need another type, would be the first cannon-armed Ranged Warship (gunpowder), but we are really talking about a ship type that only was important for about a century: by 1650 Galleon hulls were big enough to mount heavy guns on 2 - 3 continuous gun decks, and became the Ship of the Line. That is the ship that needs to return to the game, because it dominated naval war from 1650 to 1850 and was the measure of every Great Power navy until shell-firing guns made all wooden warships obsolete.

 

[Phrozen]

You need a faster privateer/pirate ship like a sloop of war or smaller brig or frigate types that could carry more guns than their size would suggest but small enough and agile enough to get inside the gun blind spots of larger ships. Particularly in geographies where they could ambush a larger ship.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

All "melee" ships use arrows/cannons etc. in their attack animations anyways so the only distinction between the two are the ranged and naval raider ships have do not take damage when attacking.

In regard to Caravels, maybe they should put it in a naval recon line and let it upgrade into submarines.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

The problem is that while most earlier (European) ships were Melee in that they were basically platforms for soldiers to attack other ships from with melee or short-ranged weapons, once heavy naval guns were available All regular warships became Ranged types.

And compounding the problem is that the hull/ship types like Caravel and Carrack started out as Melee (carrying archers and melee troops) but later were converted to carrying cannon. The earliest Caravels were really too small to carry heavy guns, but the Portugeuse Naus were heavy enough and later Caravels, as stated, were hard to tell from Carracks in size. Carracks started as melee ships (like the Tudor Carrack Mary Rose, (built 1511 CE) which carried a few heavy guns but also several hundred troops with pikes, halberds, bills and longbows) but Carracks also mounted 'ship-killing' artillery, like the Micheal built at the same time as the Rose, with 27 "great guns" mounted mostly broadside.

The Galleon (first mentioned as a pure sailing ship in 1530 CE), though, was the first hull-type generally planned to carry big guns from the start. Even the earliest of them, built in the late 16th century, carried 30 - 50 large cannon compared to the poor little Mary Rose, which carried only 9, and the 'race built' Galleon hulls invented by John Hawkins starting around 1570 could out-sail and out-maneuver both Galleons and older Carracks while shooting them to pieces - the Foresight, the first of the breed, carried 28 heavy guns while weighing just 300 tons - less than a third the size of the Great Ships but more heavily armed and faster.

All of which means, to keep things separate, I suggest the Caravel be reserved for what it was originally: a Scouting-type ships designed for long distance voyages but not particularly well-armed. Later and larger Caravels were almost indistinguishable from Carracks, so make Carrack a separate type, and the last Melee sailing warship.

The Galleon IF we need another type, would be the first cannon-armed Ranged Warship (gunpowder), but we are really talking about a ship type that only was important for about a century: by 1650 Galleon hulls were big enough to mount heavy guns on 2 - 3 continuous gun decks, and became the Ship of the Line. That is the ship that needs to return to the game, because it dominated naval war from 1650 to 1850 and was the measure of every Great Power navy until shell-firing guns made all wooden warships obsolete.

All "melee" ships use arrows/cannons etc. in their attack animations anyways so the only distinction between the two are the ranged and naval raider ships have do not take damage when attacking.

In regard to Caravels, maybe they should put it in a naval recon line and let it upgrade into submarines.

You need a faster privateer/pirate ship like a sloop of war or smaller brig or frigate types that could carry more guns than their size would suggest but small enough and agile enough to get inside the gun blind spots of larger ships. Particularly in geographies where they could ambush a larger ship.

Actually THIS means 'Four naval classes' as in Civ6 isn't really enough. and with gunpowder, mislabled.
What are four classes actually?
- N. Melee (The first available, actually equivalent to what Pre-1975 US Navy warship definitions listed as either Cruisers or Destroyers... Note that Frigate should belong to this category and NOT ranged.)
- N. Ranged (Usually those qualify as 'Battleships' of respective era, though adding cog in Middle Ages in this class would be based on actual primary combat functions (floating towers, as per Sluys, and later La Rochelle of 100 Years War.) rather than its size (Cogs are taller, broader, yet shorter than any galley of early 14th Century, either of Northern or Italian designs which later formed a basis of gunny Galleon hull shapes) )
- N. Raider (Privateer and Subs)
- Aircraft Carrier (One of a kind)

I've alredy discussed that Four promo class systems aren't really a do on a different thread. especially with Privateer and Submarines are placed in the same evolutional lineage. I can't really recall that submarines did really used indeed in piracy. and piracy can only be done in close combat and not with the use of torpedoes. Most of the time, subs are anti-capitol ships watercrafts, capabilities not available with any pirate band could do against either big galleon or Ships of the Line. and they aren't particularly fasts.
Also Privateers shown in game is of Enlightenment Era designs, (in previous game only replacements (Sea Beggars, AKA Dunkirkers, Dutch UU) is correctly modelled (as light galleon, similiar to Francis Drake's Golden Hinde, something that's about the size and jobs of a caravel rather than big battleship jobs, but with ten big guns on both sides. capable to hold its own against big gun ships before fleeing.) ), a design that might even be brigantine or sloops. also privateers had different evolutionary lineage IRL, it becomes Auxiliary Crusers that also disguises as civilian ships and has inferior guns to real cruisers, their mission is purely high sea commerce raidings, and with the introduction of submaries, one such ship is developed by British Empire, called Q Ships. used as anti-submarines originally.
This could mean that there has to be a full class of Recon/Raider naval unit, with Lembos-Liburnia be of Classical era, Bark/Barge (including Islamic Dhows) or Balinger being Middle Ages successor, Caravel being Early Modern and Brigantine/Sloop (a.k.a. privateer, actually this label shouldn't be used anymore except as 'title' for naval units earned by hirings) being (early) industrial choice that ultimately ended with Auxiliary Cruisers in Modern Era. This means Submarines class only have two units in the lineage; (Diesel Electric) Submarine and Nuclear Sub. Naval Raiders focused on explorations, reconnaissance, piracy, and smuggling activities, while Submarines lost plunder-related promotions in place of firepower and range enhancements.

I'm not really sure if a ship identified as caravel can have exactly carrack riggings as per Portuguese definitions? for Portuguese, distinctions between caravels and carracks are more clear, and this focused on sail plans. including that their Caravela Redonda (the most advanced) can have 3 or 4 masts with the front most rigged in square and all else is lateen rigged.

For the next Civ game. Caravels should use Portuguese designs, either original Caravela Latina or advanced Caravela Redonda . I'm not sure if Portuguese even indeed used caravel with same carrack riggings like, say ones used in Columbus fleet? did they? @raen

https://flic.kr/p/YXAFBv

What is a composition of Vasco da Gama's fleet (of four ships) by the way? at least one should be Naus (biggest availabe by 1497, around the same time Columbus began to 'Go West'), or are these 'All Naus' or have some combat caravel escorts? (or did escorts also being carracks instead)

^ I don't know if this is what exactly his Naus were? THIS small, just about the size of biggest caravel ever made and to either Spanish or North Atlantic Peoples (or just anyone outside Portuguese Mare Clasum domain), dubbed this one 'Caravel' outright regardless that this museum identify this model as 'Nau or Carrack'. yet according to Portuguese sources, their 'Combat Naus' are no less gunny than either English or French ones. Otherwise Portuguese couldn't win Calicut, Diu or Mallaca with their opponents having much larger fleets of several tens or hundread ships strong
On Carrack, should it be upgradeable to frigate?
And when did ships identified as either caravel or carracks continued to be used? and when did these began to disappear?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

All "melee" ships use arrows/cannons etc. in their attack animations anyways so the only distinction between the two are the ranged and naval raider ships have do not take damage when attacking.

In regard to Caravels, maybe they should put it in a naval recon line and let it upgrade into submarines.

Neatly for us and the game, though, all the lighter ranged weapons - bows, crossbows, longbows (used from Triremes, Quadriremes, Cogs and Carracks) and the light "swivel" guns that were most of the gunpowder weapons used on Caravels and Carracks, were all too light to seriously damage the ship itself. They were all, then, Pre-Melee weapons to harass or disable the crew so that the ship could be boarded and taken. That means, for game purposes, they are part of the Melee Factor or the Melee Line of naval units.

The 'Ship Killing' weapons, like catapults or ballistae firing heavy iron bolts or rocks heavy enough to stove in the hull and the later cannon firing 12 to 100+ pound stone, iron, or shell projectiles, were largely unique to certain vessels: Quinqueremes and larger polyreme galleys in the Mediterranean, Galeasses in the Renaissance, the Galleons, Ships of the Line and Frigates of the late Age of Sail. Thus, those types can all conveniently (conveniently because they fit into Classical, Renaissance and Industrial Eras, leaving the Medieval as the sole realm of the Melee Warship) be categorized as Ranged ships, before the late Industrial brings in the era of Really Long Range Gunnery when everything big enough to be called a Ship is a Ranged Vessel.

A Reconnaissance or Scout line of naval vessels would be an interesting addition to the game.

For one thing, the Lembii (general Light Ships) or Liburnians used as Scouts by 'regular' navies in the Classical Era were also the preferred ships for Pirates, so that the Scout line could also be the vessels generated by Barbarian Camps on the coastal sites.

Likewise, the Renaissance Caravel or Brigantine (both lateen and square sail rigged light, maneuverable, and fast ships) were used as long-range scouts and explorers and as pirate vessels (and Pirate Chasers, for that matter) so again, the Scout and the Pirate can use the same ship-type.

The Frigate took over the job of scouting for the regular navies in the Industrial era, and the Cruiser and Destroyer took over as surface scouts, screens, and picket boats in the Modern Era and Atomic. Pirate vessels in modern eras, as private concerns, stayed small: Sloops as sailing vessels, motor boats and launches later.

The Privateer, by the way, was not a Ship type, it was a legal term: any ship could be a privateer if licensed to attack 'enemy' shipping. Ships so licensed included late Carracks, Galleons, Frigates.

So, a Recon Ship line might be:

Classical: Liburnian Pirate: Liburnian
Renaissance: Caravel Pirate: Brigantine (nearly identical graphically)
Industrial: Frigate Pirate: Sloop*
Modern: Destroyer Pirate: Launch*
Post-Atomic: Missile Corvette Pirate: Launch*

* = has the current Privateer attribute of being invisible unless adjacent to an ordinary ship or within sight of a Scout vessel like a Frigate or Destroyer or Missile Corvette.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Neatly for us and the game, though, all the lighter ranged weapons - bows, crossbows, longbows (used from Triremes, Quadriremes, Cogs and Carracks) and the light "swivel" guns that were most of the gunpowder weapons used on Caravels and Carracks, were all too light to seriously damage the ship itself. They were all, then, Pre-Melee weapons to harass or disable the crew so that the ship could be boarded and taken. That means, for game purposes, they are part of the Melee Factor or the Melee Line of naval units.​

The 'Ship Killing' weapons, like catapults or ballistae firing heavy iron bolts or rocks heavy enough to stove in the hull and the later cannon firing 12 to 100+ pound stone, iron, or shell projectiles, were largely unique to certain vessels: Quinqueremes and larger polyreme galleys in the Mediterranean, Galeasses in the Renaissance, the Galleons, Ships of the Line and Frigates of the late Age of Sail. Thus, those types can all conveniently (conveniently because they fit into Classical, Renaissance and Industrial Eras, leaving the Medieval as the sole realm of the Melee Warship) be categorized as Ranged ships, before the late Industrial brings in the era of Really Long Range Gunnery when everything big enough to be called a Ship is a Ranged Vessel.

A Reconnaissance or Scout line of naval vessels would be an interesting addition to the game.

For one thing, the Lembii (general Light Ships) or Liburnians used as Scouts by 'regular' navies in the Classical Era were also the preferred ships for Pirates, so that the Scout line could also be the vessels generated by Barbarian Camps on the coastal sites.

Likewise, the Renaissance Caravel or Brigantine (both lateen and square sail rigged light, maneuverable, and fast ships) were used as long-range scouts and explorers and as pirate vessels (and Pirate Chasers, for that matter) so again, the Scout and the Pirate can use the same ship-type.

The Frigate took over the job of scouting for the regular navies in the Industrial era, and the Cruiser and Destroyer took over as surface scouts, screens, and picket boats in the Modern Era and Atomic. Pirate vessels in modern eras, as private concerns, stayed small: Sloops as sailing vessels, motor boats and launches later.

The Privateer, by the way, was not a Ship type, it was a legal term: any ship could be a privateer if licensed to attack 'enemy' shipping. Ships so licensed included late Carracks, Galleons, Frigates.

So, a Recon Ship line might be:

Classical: Liburnian Pirate: Liburnian
Renaissance: Caravel Pirate: Brigantine (nearly identical graphically)
Industrial: Frigate Pirate: Sloop*
Modern: Destroyer Pirate: Launch*
Post-Atomic: Missile Corvette Pirate: Launch*

* = has the current Privateer attribute of being invisible unless adjacent to an ordinary ship or within sight of a Scout vessel like a Frigate or Destroyer or Missile Corvette.

With this. it means that Naval Melee and (Early) Naval Ranged (Heavy Polyremes of Classical Era, and (maybe) Roundships (cog or similiar sailers with similiarly high sides and castellations built elsewhere like maybe Southeast Asian Djongs and Chinese Chuans??)) actually converged at the Industrial Era just like how Melee and Anticavalry infantry converged into Firepower in Early Modern?

If so revised Melee and Ranged naval unit list should be

Tag Class \ Eras​	Ancient​	Classical​	Medieval​	Early Modern (Renaissance)​	Industrial​	(Late) Modern​	Atomic​	Information​
N. Melee	Galley	Medium Polyreme	(Medieval Galley)*	Carrack+	-Converged-​	-Converged-​	-Converged-​	-Converged-​
Converged 'Combat Ship Class'	-------------------------	--------------------------	-----------------------	-------------------------	Ships of the Line -> Oceanic Ironclad*^	Dreadnought^	(Super Dreadnought) Battleship	Missile Ship
N. Ranged	(Archer Galley)*	Heavy Polyreme	(Cog or Roundship)*+	Galleon	-Converged-​	-Converged-​	-Converged-​	-Converged-​

Right ?
* I'm not sure if these units worth any significant place of these units to add in comparisions to anything before or after, despite that these units look significantly differences to anything before or after, for example Medieval Dromons or Italian Galleys are very much different to Classical Light or Medium Polyremes, though combat capacity might be no less different.
+ Names had to be applicalble with everyone.
^ I don't know if these two units are really niche in difference? yet in naval history 'Ironclads' of all kinds outdid even strongest Ships of the Line (including post 1810 Designs and even with naval rifles) and these 'Ironclads' also means Pre-Dreadnought battleships. in the same token, at Jutland. All Dreadnoughts did outclass either Battlecrisers or Pre Dreadnougths off all kind, to these ends these Pre Dreads are either scrapped, or relegated to secondary roles like school ships, floating targets, or coastal defense ships (none of these were sold to poor country as secondhand repurposed, all 'coastal defense ships' earmarked for poor countries are all newly made and too bad their capabilities are barely matched cruisers in Ship VS Ship combat of the day).

Or these convergences aren't really correct ?? (Naval Melee and Naval Recon are converged at the same points instead).

Addendum: Portuguese Carracks in combat (Civ 6). I'm not sure if they use swivel guns or broadside cannons? yet given a profile of Mary Rose, Big Harry or Michael (North European Supercarracks) this would be primary weapons just like lil caravels

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Just a few notes:

As posted, Galleys with archers used them simply as adjuncts to boarding or ramming tactics, so they really shouldn't count as 'ranged', leaving just the Melee Galley as the ancient ship-of-all-trades. This is confirmed, sort of, by the only depiction we have of early Egyptian galleys transporting troops along the coast (about 2500 BCE) which shows all the galleys virtually alike - transports, warships with archers, warships with troops.

The Roman and Hellenistic kingdoms who built most of them classified all vessels as Light or Heavy - Medium simply wasn't used.
Light was everything smaller than a Quadrireme: Triremes, Librunians, Hemiolas, etc. Including the Quadrireme, that was every hull too light to carry catapults or ballistae without getting shaken apart by the recoil from those 'heavy weapons'.
Heavy was Quinqueremes and larger polyremes, which were big and heavy enough to carry and use both bolt and stone-throwing catapults that could do some serious damage to hulls and ships. That makes the division very suitable for our purposes: Light = Melee, Heavy = Ranged.

Keeping the Galley alone in the Ancient, the earliest specific Scout/Recon ship would be the Very Light hulls of the Classical: Lembi, Liburnians and such, followed by the Caravel in the Early Modern Era, Frigate and Destroyer in the Industrial and Modern Eras, and Missle Corvette in the Post-Modern (Atomic?) Eras.
Like the later Land Recon units, the Frigate and Destroyer and Missile Corvette would all acquire Ranged Factors, while the earliest naval 'scouts' would be Melee vessels. That would also make the later Recon naval units more useful as combat ships to supplement the now-converged other military ships.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ So you confirmed that 'Naval Melee' and 'Naval Ranged' did converge at Industrial Era as Ships of the Line.
Well I'm not really sure if Dreadnoughts and Superdreadnoughts that followed (these are things very few countries in the world could have) can be a direct upgrade of SoTL (or Oceanic Ironclad) or... just like Grenadiers being elite separately built units of 'converged Firepower' class of infantry. Dreads deserves to be separately built, and this means generic choice would be 'Pre Dreadnought' designs? (i'd dubbed it 'Armored Ships' .. think of Kriegsmarine Panzerschiff, and this could includes those considered 'affordable' by the rests of the world, like Swedes Coastal Defense Ships, and Siamese Thonburi Class)??

And now return to the table. what is a better name for Classical Melee Warship choice?
A. Trireme
B. Quadrireme
C. Light Polyreme

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Rather than a set of separate ship types like Dreadnaught, Fast Battleship, Super Battleship, etc. given that the 'age of the battleship' only lasted from 1906 to 1936 (until the first Fleet Aircraft Carriers) - or at most parts of 2 Eras - I would simply allow a general Upgrade from Dreadnaught to Battleship which involves the most common upgrade: convert to Oil-fired boilers (Coal as Maintenance Resource to Oil with a +1 Speed increase), better gun mounts and fire control for longer range (+1 Range, from 2 to 3 tiles, for instance, or however Civ VII handles Extreme Ranges) and massive increase in air defense (as in, over 100 20 - 40mm AA guns on the Iowa class battleships, plus radar fire control and early warning, proximity fuses, multiple gun directors, etc)

The Trireme is first mentioned around 540 BCE , then supplanted as the most common 'light combat ship' by the Quadrireme by 340 BCE and afterwards - or a time as the most common such ship of only about 200 years, whereas the Quadrireme lasted into the Roman Imperial era, or over 400 years. On the other hand, the Trireme is probably the best known (and for most people, the only) classical warship, so take your pick: use the best known title or the most common title IRL. Of course, if the graphic depicts a kataphractoi ('covered' as in deck over the oarsmen protecting them) then the only discernable difference would be 3 versus 2 banks of oars, if that is even visible.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

And what to do with naval evolutions between 1850-1905? something between Ships of the Line and BB? Especdially with Ironclads outperformed Ships of the Line (and i'm very sure that it replaced SoTL)

And what to do with either Pre-Dreadnoughts or Coastal Defense Ship (which said to be on par with pre-dread, but smaller) like this.

or even Kreigsmarine Panzerschiffs

Deutschland-class battleship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Deutschland-class cruiser - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

particularly for poor countries.

And for Naval Recon. did Barge/Bark or Barinel/Balingers too niche to add between Lemboi/Liburnia of the classical era and Caravelas of the Early Modern ?

^ My fixed model of original vanilla galley (side rudders and rowing benches are my creations, the original model lacks of these). should this be what a Lembos or Liburnia looks like?
(But surely not what Trireme looks )