Lonecat Nekophrodite
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- Jan 10, 2019
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Should Age II military units have more tiers?
So far I don't think Age II military units lineups are really historically accurate. or if they really are, the rules only partially correct. Both in times of apperances, and real life combat performances VS in game. Regardless of a gameplay is now 'A Three-Stage Campaign plays on the same map', with Two 'Lost Ages' breaks.
Units in Asterisks (*) are what I don't really agree on any aspects of their respective profiles.
Swordsman: This unit never deploys even in one column as homogeneous unit, these were generally professionals, either as part of fully paid professional 'Imperial Army' (The most explicit examples being Roman Legion, which under the New Rules the two units will never meet unless modded), or hosts of elite warrior castes. 'Common swordsmen' actually wield axes. Also this unit is usually grouped with spearmen.
Recommended name is 'Footman'. and graphical representation is Early Medieval Spearmen added to swordsmen.
Catapult: In this sense 'Onager' is preferably used to represent 'catapults' in all Civ games since the beginning. This siege engine doesn't seems to existed in the Medieval Era. Traction Trebuchet (Mangonel) is used instead.
Arquebusier: Firaxis NEVER seems to model this unit right
1. Traditionally they were either named 'Musketeers' or 'Musketmen', and being a successor to any pre-gunpowder infantry of any kind. Basically the first gunpowder unit in game. Which is the first instance that Firaxis 'got it wrong' in chronological order. IRL 'Big guns' come first, and Musketry follows.
2. In Civ 5 and 6. Musketmen are 'melee' units. As per gameplay (and engine wise) it appears to be so, In Civ 7 this unit is now named Arquebusier and a (full) ranged unit (2 hexes range!) In real life they have a lousy melee characteristics and only half or two third an effective range of archers and crossbowmen (100 meters while archers and crossbowmen can hit a target up to 200 - 300 meters away, not counting ability to do 'fly shots' plunging fire (which at some angles can extend its range with much reduced accuracy) ). the actual uses were (short) range combat unit, with original intent was 'anti-armor' unit. (because by the time of its introduction as Arquebusier (1493 i think, basically the end of 15th Century), plate armor of any kind was a standard wargear. from simple footmen wearing iron cuirasses and pot helmets to heavily armed and armored men at arms (and knights) of Second Estate. And its thundering noise scares, or annoys combatants considerably.
The only reason is that there's already Xunleichong being Ming Empire Infantry class UU with a range of 1 hex.
Above all, This unit NEVER WAS a homogeneous unit IRL. While Field Army systems is introduced (as a vastly improved stackings, from What I know so far, 'Field Army' is now 'Combat package' of various fighting units of the same domain) also allowed the creations of 'Manual Pike and Shotte' formations. Again these aren't really historically accurate as Spanish Tercio (a recurring spanish UU) is Infantry class with no range attacks AT ALL! (And that's another discussion in Spanish thread. Now let's focus on generic choices)
Lancer: Firaxis got it wrong this time
1. Name is Lancer, Icon is Couched Lance. representations are Early Modern cavaly evolutions. What FXis represented here is actually Pistoliers (cavalry that wields large caliber horse pistols, and even hostered few more for evenmore firepower before needing to reload.)
Also order of appearance (enabling tech) and nomeclature is VERY Wrong. The correct name should be Cuirassiers. (And Tier 1 cavalry name should be renamed 'Line Cavalry', which can be modelled sans cuirass, which actually what cavalrymen of 18th Century onwards commonly do. And can represents somebody elses gun cavalry of Age III (Particlarly US Army Cavalry, who NEVER wore steel cuirasses even once).
^ One to the left appears to be Spanish lancers, the other is Cholans.
And tech is also VERY wrong. it comes BEFORE Gunpowder. this small arms existed BEFORE big guns. really?????????
Cog: While itself as warships are historically accurate (partucularly in shape and size). Time of appearances did not.
- Age II Starts at 400 AD (or 500 AD)
- First 'high capacity sailer' identified as a cog shows up in 941 AD (based on the oldest archaeological findings).
Between 400-941 AD, primary warships were still galleys of some sort. In mediterranean these were Liburnia or evolved iterations -- the Dromon. In Atlantic, North Sea and Baltic, these were clinker built longships used by BOTH vikings and anyone else around them.
IF There should be Tier 4 (or even Tier 5!) These are reformed unit lists
Any of you agree or disagree? or has different proposals regarding to unit lineups or realignments
So far I don't think Age II military units lineups are really historically accurate. or if they really are, the rules only partially correct. Both in times of apperances, and real life combat performances VS in game. Regardless of a gameplay is now 'A Three-Stage Campaign plays on the same map', with Two 'Lost Ages' breaks.
Class | Tier 1 | Tier 2 | Tier 3 |
| Infantry | Swordsman* | Man At Arms | Pikeman |
| Ranged | Heavy Archer | Crossbowman | Arquebusier* |
| Cavalry | Courser | Knight | Lancer |
| Siege | Catapult* | Trebuchet | Bombard |
| Naval | Cog* | Carrack | Galleon |
Swordsman: This unit never deploys even in one column as homogeneous unit, these were generally professionals, either as part of fully paid professional 'Imperial Army' (The most explicit examples being Roman Legion, which under the New Rules the two units will never meet unless modded), or hosts of elite warrior castes. 'Common swordsmen' actually wield axes. Also this unit is usually grouped with spearmen.
Recommended name is 'Footman'. and graphical representation is Early Medieval Spearmen added to swordsmen.
Catapult: In this sense 'Onager' is preferably used to represent 'catapults' in all Civ games since the beginning. This siege engine doesn't seems to existed in the Medieval Era. Traction Trebuchet (Mangonel) is used instead.
Arquebusier: Firaxis NEVER seems to model this unit right
1. Traditionally they were either named 'Musketeers' or 'Musketmen', and being a successor to any pre-gunpowder infantry of any kind. Basically the first gunpowder unit in game. Which is the first instance that Firaxis 'got it wrong' in chronological order. IRL 'Big guns' come first, and Musketry follows.
2. In Civ 5 and 6. Musketmen are 'melee' units. As per gameplay (and engine wise) it appears to be so, In Civ 7 this unit is now named Arquebusier and a (full) ranged unit (2 hexes range!) In real life they have a lousy melee characteristics and only half or two third an effective range of archers and crossbowmen (100 meters while archers and crossbowmen can hit a target up to 200 - 300 meters away, not counting ability to do 'fly shots' plunging fire (which at some angles can extend its range with much reduced accuracy) ). the actual uses were (short) range combat unit, with original intent was 'anti-armor' unit. (because by the time of its introduction as Arquebusier (1493 i think, basically the end of 15th Century), plate armor of any kind was a standard wargear. from simple footmen wearing iron cuirasses and pot helmets to heavily armed and armored men at arms (and knights) of Second Estate. And its thundering noise scares, or annoys combatants considerably.
The only reason is that there's already Xunleichong being Ming Empire Infantry class UU with a range of 1 hex.
Above all, This unit NEVER WAS a homogeneous unit IRL. While Field Army systems is introduced (as a vastly improved stackings, from What I know so far, 'Field Army' is now 'Combat package' of various fighting units of the same domain) also allowed the creations of 'Manual Pike and Shotte' formations. Again these aren't really historically accurate as Spanish Tercio (a recurring spanish UU) is Infantry class with no range attacks AT ALL! (And that's another discussion in Spanish thread. Now let's focus on generic choices)
Lancer: Firaxis got it wrong this time
1. Name is Lancer, Icon is Couched Lance. representations are Early Modern cavaly evolutions. What FXis represented here is actually Pistoliers (cavalry that wields large caliber horse pistols, and even hostered few more for evenmore firepower before needing to reload.)
Also order of appearance (enabling tech) and nomeclature is VERY Wrong. The correct name should be Cuirassiers. (And Tier 1 cavalry name should be renamed 'Line Cavalry', which can be modelled sans cuirass, which actually what cavalrymen of 18th Century onwards commonly do. And can represents somebody elses gun cavalry of Age III (Particlarly US Army Cavalry, who NEVER wore steel cuirasses even once).
^ One to the left appears to be Spanish lancers, the other is Cholans.
And tech is also VERY wrong. it comes BEFORE Gunpowder. this small arms existed BEFORE big guns. really?????????
Cog: While itself as warships are historically accurate (partucularly in shape and size). Time of appearances did not.
- Age II Starts at 400 AD (or 500 AD)
- First 'high capacity sailer' identified as a cog shows up in 941 AD (based on the oldest archaeological findings).
Between 400-941 AD, primary warships were still galleys of some sort. In mediterranean these were Liburnia or evolved iterations -- the Dromon. In Atlantic, North Sea and Baltic, these were clinker built longships used by BOTH vikings and anyone else around them.
IF There should be Tier 4 (or even Tier 5!) These are reformed unit lists
Class | Tier 1 | Tier 2 | Tier 3 | Tier 4 | Tier 5 |
| Infantry | Footman (Renamed Swordsman with medieval spearmen added) | Man At Arms | Pikeman | Pike and Shotte (Arquebusier with Pikemen added, this is not really likely because this unit will ultimately looks like Spanish Tercio (which itself the FIRST Pike and Shotte). And this unit attack range should be 1 | Fusilier |
| Ranged | Heavy Archers | Crossbowman | - | Culverin | Early Fieldcannon |
| Cavalry | Courser | Knight | Lancer (Graphic overhaul, now as heavy knight wearing heavy steel armor and couched lance) | Cuirassier | - |
| Siege | Mangonel (Traction trebuchet, Onager doesn't belong here). | Trebuchet | Bombard | Siege Cannon | - |
| Naval | Medieval Galley | Cog | Carrack (with guns) | Galleon | Man of War OR Ships of the Line |
