Should patriotism be programmed into the civilization games?

[Quandary]

Holy King:

While not actually incorrect, I'm afraid that's a large oversimplification of the many causes of the Russian revolution, and doesn't account at all for unsuccessful revolt attempts which preceded the world war, and the finally successful 1917 revolt, by many years.

For more details and background, look at This lecture and you'll find it wasn't as simple as just war weariness, although that was in the mix as well/

Also, glance at the bottom of that page to read about the civil war against the new communist regime which resulted from the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk which got Russia out of WW1 but forced them to give up Finland, Poland, and Ukraine.

You'll find it was poverty and lack of food which was the real center of the revolution, and involvement in the war served to worsen those pre existing conditions.

 

[Quandary]

Meanwhile back at the ranch.

While I was testing something else, I allowed Germany to press their war against me. They captured and razed seven cities.

The result? Half of my cities ended up rioting against me, because another country was killing them.

That makes sense... in the Outer Limits.

Funny though.

At the begining of one turn, I suddenly saw the message "Your people admire your accomplishments....." Yep, they built an addition to my palace.

Huh?

I hit F11 right after I blew the palace screen, and my approval rating was dead last at twenty four percent.

This might be worth it's own thread.

 

[gugalpm]

Your country people would only support expansion wars if they are some kind of idiots...
It's like, I support you sending my son to the war and I support strongly his return on a plastic bag...

 

[Quandary]

Ancient Roman (and/or ancient Greek) saying to warriors: "Come back with your shield, or on it". Mostly attributed as something a mother would say when her son went off to war.

"On it" (the shield) meant dead or wounded (honor in battle is assumed).

All cultures are not your culture. All periods of time are not your period of time. Many cultures considered wars of conquest to be for the glory and honor of their nation. That is what militaristic means, not getting a lower build cost on barracks. When their nation conquered others, they gained prestige and were happy. Maybe like you'd be happy if your nation won a major international football match.

Sometimes idiocy only means "I didn't grow up believing what you grew up believing".

 

[stormbind]

Patriotism should also reduce the number of happy faces gained from foreign luxuries

As in, most patriots take pride in purchasing products bearing the label "Made in your country".

 

[Quandary]

But only if the luxury can be produced by that civ/nation.

I don't know of many people in the U.S. who feel proud to buy California sparkling wine rather than French Champane.

Or even a domestic sugar bomb chocolate bar instead of the wonderful chocolate that the Swiss, French, English, or just about anyone else outside the U.S. come to think of it, make.

 

[one_man_assault]

Patriotism should be an element of the people a rating that is kept track of through out the game based on what your countrie is doing and once it hits zero thats when people riot. (example your nation is helping its nieghbor fend of your main rival from gaining a foot hold on your continent Patriotism level goes up one, or your country mercilously slaughters 10s of thousands of lives in claiming the vast riches of a primitive civilization patriotism level goes down) it would make a great addition to the game under one condiion. That you couldnt be able to see the level it was currently in. That way you wouldnt be like Bushy Jr. and declare war when the patriotism is heading down...

 

[Hygro]

Patriotism IS in the game! When you fight a traditional enemy or have war declared on you, most cities go into WLTKD, or at least become happier.

In fact, Bamspeedy suggests this not only gives happiness, but SLOWS WW, and even depends on success in battle.

 

[Quandary]

Hygro, just give it time.

If the enemy won't talk to you to let you get a peace treaty, and keeps attacking, your people start to riot on you because, um, well because your enemy won't talk to you and let you get a peace treaty and since he's attacking them and they don't want to get attacked anymore, the best way for them to deal with it is to riot on you so you can't defend them against the enemy who is attacking you and won't talk to you and let you get a peace treaty.................

 

[Hygro]

Are you sure you're replying to me?

 

[Nad]

I think patriotic should be a civ trait. The advantages should be

1) one extra citizen born content in each city
2) reduced chance of culture flip

 

[Hygro]

Or maybe the tech Nationalism makes culture flips harder.

Anyway, what nation would get the patriotic trait? Every country has their patriots and nationalists.

 

[Quandary]

I can't see it as a trait, for the same reasons Hygro mentions. Plus from a design perspective, it would be a public relations nightmare.

I sure wouldn't want the job of reading the emails from countries that didn't get the patriotic trait.

Oh, yes I was replying to you above, Hygro.

Reverse WW wears off fast and hard, as I saw graphically demonstrated in my current game.

I was attacked by a "traditional enemy", only managed to save my civ by buying a world war against them.

Turn after turn, I couldn't talk to the leader ("refused our envoy!"), and had my approval rate drop and drop until I had entertainment cranked to the breaking point.

I finally was able to buy a peace treaty (I had no choice, really) which broke my military alliance treaties and ended up with the entire world mad at me.

Not a pretty scenario.

All because my civ, which was minding it's own business, got invaded.

AFAIC, if you get invaded there should never be WW as we know it in this game. Certainly not to the point of civil disorder while the civ's cities are under attack.

Makes no sense. Especially when my approval rate was 87%+ before the attack.

 

[Hygro]

Well Russia had bad WW in its czarist monarchy when it was losing troops in WW1.

Also, I think WW could have a reversal effect when you are winning fights (though not as strong as losing them).

 

[Quandary]

We've talked about that, also.

Russia already had a very long history of dissatisfaction with the monarchs, and had failed at two other revolution attempts well before that war.

The people weren't tired of the war. They were tired of being broke and hungry. The war made them more broke and more hungry by diverting the little they had into that effort.

My civ citizens were neither broke nor hungry... though I probably should have starved the creeps (J/K)

 

[one_man_assault]

Patriotism IS in the game! When you fight a traditional enemy or have war declared on you, most cities go into WLTKD, or at least become happier.

Thats not deep enough. The best way to implement it IMHO is to make it a some what invisible ratiing based on what you do as a nation can either make your people feel proud of ashamed and more likely to riot. it goes from lets say 0-10 and 10s the hightest. you start out with five. You defeat bands of barbarians as you expand your empire Partriotism goes up one. You discover the Zulus. You imedeatily demand money, they accept but you destroy them any ways for no reason (ie reasources, you pilliged there citys) Patriotism - 1. And when it hits 0 or 1 then your people have a high chance of rioting.

But there should be a counter measure for this called policeing. It would be like a science meter and the more funds you generate to it the better equiped and trained they are to handel situations like rioting...forgot to mention this in my last post