should the "americans" be included in civ? (besides of all commercial reasons)

[holy king]

often discussed in other threads, here is the topic's very own one.

i think the us just doesnt fit in the concept of civ, nor it fits to the other civs.

the us isnt a civilization in the very sense of a civilization, as it just started as an independent british colony, and was just a melting pot for refugees during its expansion over the northern american continent. theres no cradle of us-american culture since there is no overall american culture, there are only a lot of different "american cultures".

 

[covenant]

If your drop commercial reasons.... it is one of the last civs that should be included.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Nice of you to not bring a definition of what a civilization is into this little troll thread.

Define what civilization is before claiming that the United States of America is not a civilization.

For instance, dictionary.com says:

civilization

n 1: a society in an advanced state of social development (e.g., with complex legal and political and religious organizations); "the people slowly progressed from barbarism to civilization" [syn: civilisation] 2: the social process whereby societies achieve civilization [syn: civilisation] 3: a particular society at a particular time and place; "early Mayan civilization" [syn: culture, civilisation] 4: the quality of excellence in thought and manners and taste; "a man of intellectual refinement"; "he is remembered for his generosity and civilization" [syn: refinement, civilisation]

Clearly the United States fits the bill.

Until holy king gives his definition of civilization and shows how other included civs meet it, but the United States donesn't, no one should really bother posting here.

 

[CorSaiR]

It think it should be included. You can't rule out somebody just because it isn't an ancient culture. To me it impossible to imagine moder world, in real life and in civ game, without the Americans. They are a melting pot for refugees but that also makes them unique.

 

[EdCase]

Yes yes they should. I am not an American born..though for the last 9 years I have lived and worked here....and heres why I believe they should be included.

1. This Civilization/nation has risen to prominence on the world stage in a short span of time.

2. The "core" of the founding fathers ideals..liberty and justice for ALL are almost universally accepted in the free world.

3. The impact of American "civilization" worldwide is indisputable. (where do you live?...how far is the nearest fast food restaraunt? Whats on your TV or in your movie theaters?)

4. In 1000 years the USA may not exist in its present form..but its impact on world culture will undoubtly be remembered.

5. Which leads me to.....definition of a civilization ? hard to say..but for me simply being bloody ancient and/or defunct is not qualifier enough.

6. If the Irqouis (Civ III) can be represented...(no and I mean no impact on the [known] world) then so can the USA/ Americans.

 

[microbe]

If your drop commercial reasons.... it is one of the last civs that should be included.

I kinda agree, but if you count modern times, the US is one of the most significant countries.

 

[tcjsavannah]

no, trinidad and tobago should be in instead of US

 

[darkdude]

What did you do Holy King. That's a never ending discussion
Where did the Europeans come from originally? From Africa probably and probably also the rest of the world; so maybe we should only include Mali (maybe they're too low placed in the poll?) and the Zulus to fight eachother to death in Civ? I think the Americans deserve to be in the game based upon their impact on society right now; and paying my bills every month makes me respect the here and now somehow. Of course, viewed from world history, the country is not around for a long time but it's all about where you place your emphasis so there is a lot of room for personal preferences.

 

[doronron]

Not sure about that. You just have to look at it in perspective. Certainly Greece, Persia, Egypt, Carthage, et al. considered Rome a bunch of arrogant young punks when they were up and coming. However, look at how we hold Rome in such high esteem these days? The respect we give the Roman empire today is due entirely to the actions it took thousands of years ago, not what it does today. Rome was not well liked then, just as the US is not well liked now.

Who's not to say that in the future, once the current political world has dissolved and reconstituted itself, that the United States will be shown the same honor?

 

[mitsho]

yes, definitely, it is a civilization.

The thing is, what is a civilization?
culture is a definition: Greeks
ethnicity is another one: Turks
political states are another one: England, France, ...

If we go for culture, Russia, England, France, Spain, America and Germany are one civilization.
If we go for political states, it is difficult to say Greece and India are civilizations (since they are only 'united' in the modern world', at their peaktime, they were split up into many many political units).
If we go for ethnicity, we have Slavs, Native North Americans, Native South Americans, Germanics, etc...

Do we want either of these? No! Sorry, but America deserves its place:
1. Culture-wise, they have dominated the XXth century: McDonalds, Coke, Hollywood, Broadway, Rock&Roll, etc.
2. Political state wise, they have dominated this century...
3. and from the ethnic point of view, they are one country that truly deserves the name 'melting pot'.

mitsho

PS: I'm Swiss, not American, and I have no connection whatsoever to America (Ok, I've been there twice for holidays, but that's it)

 

[Aks K]

I think the safest thing would be to make a poll - I strongly suggest that.

I am no for Americans to be in civ (gameplay reasons), because I usually only play Ancient Times and Middles Ages in civ3. If I care for playing all eras in civ4 America would be ok - but in the buttom of my list though.

@holy king: If you make this kind of thread it is smart to give it a neutral start. Else it will spawm much unhappiness to early.

Aks K

 

[darkdude]

Not sure about that. You just have to look at it in perspective. Certainly Greece, Persia, Egypt, Carthage, et al. considered Rome a bunch of arrogant young punks when they were up and coming. However, look at how we hold Rome in such high esteem these days? The respect we give the Roman empire today is due entirely to the actions it took thousands of years ago, not what it does today. Rome was not well liked then, just as the US is not well liked now.

Who's not to say that in the future, once the current political world has dissolved and reconstituted itself, that the United States will be shown the same honor?

High esteem? They did some remarkable things, but I think most people would agree they could also be bastards (Nero, Caligula, anybody?) with the arrogance of a civilization with absolute power in the part of the world they controlled. It's the same kind of 'respect' the US has now in the world. The respect you have for a civilization that is military superior and can basically do what they want. You better have respect or else...

 

[doronron]

High esteem? They did some remarkable things, but I think most people would agree they could also be bastards (Nero, Caligula, anybody?) with the arrogance of a civilization with absolute power in the part of the world they controlled. It's the same kind of 'respect' the US has now in the world. The respect you have for a civilization that is military superior and can basically do what they want. You better have respect or else...

That's exactly my point. Both the United States today and the Rome of the classical period hold pretty much the same position. The difference, though, is that people today freely acknowledge what a great influence the Roman empire was, taking both the good and the bad. They also freely acknowledge just how powerful Rome was, without all the jingoistic ****, primarily because Rome no longer exists and there is no competition. The United States will be remembered in much the same way once our politcal climate has been wiped out.

And some of that jingoistic **** is showing through your post. You may accept Rome as a major power despite all its faults because it was destroyed so long ago, but your tone condemns the United States because they hold a similar position and still exist.

 

[darkdude]

That's exactly my point. Both the United States today and the Rome of the classical period hold pretty much the same position. The difference, though, is that people today freely acknowledge what a great influence the Roman empire was, taking both the good and the bad. They also freely acknowledge just how powerful Rome was, without all the jingoistic ****, primarily because Rome no longer exists and there is no competition. The United States will be remembered in much the same way once our politcal climate has been wiped out.

And some of that jingoistic **** is showing through your post. You may accept Rome as a major power despite all its faults because it was destroyed so long ago, but your tone condemns the United States because they hold a similar position and still exist.

I don't condemn anything and for a dominating power the world could do much worse (my opinion). But I realise politics is all about power (I don't think Chroestjov would've backed out of Cuba if The Netherlands would've told him so instead of the US) and that saddens me somewhat and I think people who deny it have been living in a cave or haven't ever played Civ

 

[Nobody]

Yes thier impact is huge. We are living in the modern time. The only way you can take america out is if you take the modernage out of the game

 

[darkdude]

Offtopic: Nice sig Nobody; I just calculated that with Bill owning 30 billion dollars against a 5% interest per year, it only starts to become profitable for him to pick up some money from the streets, assuming it takes 10 seconds, when that amount is more than like 10 thousand dollars

 

[Dr. Broom]

I don't think the US should be included because it is a civilization which is very new in a game that covers ancient history. I would start measuring it from whenever the future American people arrived, the pilgrims even though they were British citizens they were the foundation for America. I am not sure when that was but I will assume it was in the 1600's.

I believe civ iv will start in 4000BC so it would be a good arguement that only the Middle Eastern and North African civs really existed at around time but I would disagree with that because while say Ireland didn't exist as a nation or civilization, the Irish people did exist in 4000BC while the American people did not exist until the 1600's.

It would be a much better idea to have rebellions when your cities aren't happy, the rebels might want terms or independence which you can either satisfy or fight against. Each civ could have a rebel faction (or a few) assigned to them and (one of) England's could be the US.

 

[PriestOfDiscord]

I'm far more interested in the industrial and modern ages than I am in the earlier times so my answer is obviously yes. They in many ways define what is considered modern civilization.

 

[EdCase]

I don't think the US should be included because it is a civilization which is very new in a game that covers ancient history. I would start measuring it from whenever the future American people arrived, the pilgrims even though they were British citizens they were the foundation for America. I am not sure when that was but I will assume it was in the 1600's.

I believe civ iv will start in 4000BC so it would be a good arguement that only the Middle Eastern and North African civs really existed at around time but I would disagree with that because while say Ireland didn't exist as a nation or civilization, the Irish people did exist in 4000BC while the American people did not exist until the 1600's.

Hmm I beg to differ since the (to use your example) people in Ireland at that time had about as much influence on the later American culture as they did on the Irish...its all a matter of perspective

 

[HourlyDaily]

I'll say of course they bloody should - as long as other derivatives of older civilizations get a look in too. I'm not a fan of trolls saying that certain civs shouldn't be included (in favour of others or not.) Broaden the scope and let the players choose.

I'm more likely to play as Trinidad and Tobago once they are included than the Americans, but that's just me. Read the thread on the subject - even if its closed, its very informative.