should the "americans" be included in civ? (besides of all commercial reasons)

[Jonathan]

In. An American came up with the idea for the game in the first place, then convinced people from all over the globe to pony up their hard-earned cash for it. If that doesn't trump the relative novelty of the country, I don't know what does.

I can well understand why Firaxis chose to include Americans in the game. But its reasons aren't necessarily relevant to us, the players, and Firaxis in its wisdom allows players to exclude civs and to create new ones.

Out of curiosity, do Europeans consider European-Americans part of some 'European Diaspora'? In other words, are George Washington, Abe Lincoln, and FDR just basically Europeans dwelling across the ocean? If you guys are willing to be inclusive in that way, I could live without an American Civ in the game. Otherwise, let us have our one civ, and you can have your seven.

An interesting question. To take the easy part first: George Washington was born in Virginia but I suppose he was born British to British parents, as US nationality didn't exist at that time. So yes, he was a European dwelling across the ocean.

Later Americans are genetically mostly-European, but as time goes by they naturally develop a distinctively American culture.

Looking at it from a 6000-year point of view, one could regard the Americans as simply a continuation of the English civ. The English are no longer major players on the world stage, but the USA carries the baton. As long as the game doesn't permit civs to split, this may be the best approximation to history that we can manage. After all, if civs couldn't split, the USA would still be British.

 

[dc82]

Yes, indeed, you can introduce Klingons into the game if you feel like it. But it seems to me that the basic game is designed to look like real history and is more satisfying if it does so.

The game is supposed to operate in a logical sense in history - but it's supposed to allow the freedom of fiction - if it was based purely on history, then the game would be constructed much different - you wouldn't have the option of "non-Earth" maps, they'd focus on the transitions of civs over time, the modding aspect woudn't be focused on - the whole idea is, while basing the game on history and a logical order (based on history) - what would the game be like if... So what if the Americans started back in 4000 B.C. alongside the Indians and Persians. What if the Indians started Judaism and the Zulu were the first to research electricty - sure, you can set up the game so that it follows history - choose the civs you want and try your best to follow - but again, the fun is to be able to stray off from "history" and still under a logical rational direction, follow your own path.

 

[troytheface]

Should America be a Civ? Absurd question. Civ would not exsist but for america.
There is always this question of genesis- England was invaded a gazillion times, as was greece, spain ect. The true peoples arguement is nationalistic fiction.
The first civ should be the tribe of single celled organisms that thought-
i eat- therefore i am.

 

[Legionary37]

Come now, the Ancient Romans battled against German tribes (with a rather surprising lack of success). The fact that Germans remained politically disunited for a long time doesn't mean that they didn't exist.

People lived in what is now America long before the nation was founded. The nation of "Germany" did not exist in 100 A.D. anymore than the nation of "America" exist. Both were inhabited by various tribes long before Germany or America was founded.

 

[Evol]

I can't understand why we are giving so much importance to the beginning and none to the end of the time scale. America is present in half of the eras of the game: industrial and modern times.

Romans, Carthaginians, Sumerians, and ancient Greeks, for example, were gone before the middle ages. Spain did not exist as a unified country until the 15th century. Why doesn''t anyone complain for having Spain in the game? (I'm Spanish, by the way)

From my point of view, there is only one civ, which is the human civilization. The rest are cultures that more or less change over the time. And I believe a culture is closely tied to the land it is inhabitting. So the land is a main factor too, and let us not forget that the name is America (not the USA). Therefore, at least for me, America in this game represents the different layers of peoples/cultures that have inhabitted that part of the land from ancient times, even if at a certain point those were drastically changed.

Of course, commercial reasons still can have a strong influence. Looks like anything taller than a two-story house that has been built in America deserves to be a Great Wonder...

 

[warpstorm]

I feel that including those upstarts the Romans spoils the atmosphere. I mean really, Rome in 4000BC.

 

[Jonathan]

People lived in what is now America long before the nation was founded. The nation of "Germany" did not exist in 100 A.D. anymore than the nation of "America" exist. Both were inhabited by various tribes long before Germany or America was founded.

"Native Americans" lived in America for a long time, but they were a different civ: not really anything to do with the USA. The USA almost wiped them out.

European settlers lived in America for a short time before the USA was founded, but they were British, French, etc.: civs already represented in the game.

The German tribes who fought the ancient Romans were the ancestors of modern Germans and can reasonably be considered the same civ. They're not represented by any other civ in the game.

But basically this is a matter of subjective preference. Some people may think it reasonable to include the Americans in the game and exclude the Germans. OK, they can do that. Other people may want to include the Germans and exclude the Americans. They can do that too. Whatever turns you on.

Naturally any player of the game will want to include his own country, whatever the merits of the case, and this goes for Americans as for anyone else.

 

[Jonathan]

I feel that including those upstarts the Romans spoils the atmosphere. I mean really, Rome in 4000BC.

True, Rome is said to have been founded in 753 BC.

You can exclude them if you like. Up to you.

By the way: I don't know how Civ 4 breaks up years into turns, but Civ 3 has 540 turns and the Americans should come into existence on about the 353rd turn of the game (65% of the game already done). The Romans should come into existence on the 90th turn (17% of the game already done).

 

[Hannabir]

Looking at it from a 6000-year point of view, one could regard the Americans as simply a continuation of the English civ.

Only a minority of the ancestors of the USA citizens were English.

 

[TerraHero]

Without the whole commercial dealins i still think America has now the definiton of a civilization.

But if u leave away all these commercialistic crap i do want to add that America doesnt deserve to be added as a main-line civ and that there are other Civs that deserve that place more.

 

[Jonathan]

Only a minority of the ancestors of the USA citizens were English.

Similarly, I'm sure only a minority of the ancestors of modern British people were Ancient Brits. Most countries, not just the USA, have had lots of immigrants and invaders contributing to their genetic mix over the centuries.

The USA was founded by people who were mostly British and who seceded from Britain. If civs cannot split (as I believe they can't in Civ 4), then secession would be impossible and the USA couldn't have got started: whatever its genetic mix, it would necessarily have remained part of the British Empire, unless successfully invaded by another civ.

 

[TerraHero]

I think perhaps Civ5 should get a diff aproach of Civilizations.

Let people "make" there own.

juz some random talk, but it could work.

Everyone starts with 1 setler like everyone else. And every can develope tehre own traits as the civ progresses and get there own name, when it has like 3 cities and is "mentionable".

The computer will randomly generate a name from a large file containing names of about all teh civs that every excisted and also try and go for traiths that feature that civ. You cna do teh same or descide that your Germans are a warmongering race, or wouldnt hurt a fly.

Sort of like an RPG, but then RPGing a civilization

Everyone cna juz make there own civ. So watch out world! Here come the douchebags!

 

[Hannabir]

Similarly, I'm sure only a minority of the ancestors of modern British people were Ancient Brits. Most countries, not just the USA, have had lots of immigrants and invaders contributing to their genetic mix over the centuries.

The USA was founded by people who were mostly British and who seceded from Britain.

There were many other nationalities among the people that founded the USA, and in significant numbers, too.

 

[vStauffenberg]

@hannabir: founded mostly by british, i think...
but later emigration waves made the british a minority

see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries.jpg#filelinks




looking at the family names of many u.s. americans, i am not surprised many have german ancestors. i would not have expected it to be THAT clear, though...

i'm also surprised irish are before english... on the other hand, there was a huge irish immigration wave shortly before the german immigration wave i think, correct me if i'm wrong...

 

[Jonathan]

later emigration waves made the british a minority

Couldn't you have said that a bit smaller?

All the people of Britain have foreign origins if you trace the family tree back far enough, but they still call themselves British now. We don't identify ourselves by our genes.

I think most Americans now think of themselves as American, whatever their family origins.

I repeat: if the world worked like Civilization, civs would not be allowed to split, in which case the USA would still be British (as it was up to 1776) and its people would mostly think of themselves as British, wherever their families came from originally. Thus, in the game (only), it makes sense to regard the USA as simply a continuation of the English civ.

In real life, of course the USA has gone its own way since 1776 and its people (including those of British origin) mostly think of themselves as Americans.

 

[Hannabir]

I repeat: if the world worked like Civilization, civs would not be allowed to split, in which case the USA would still be British (as it was up to 1776) and its people would mostly think of themselves as British, wherever their families came from originally.

Why do you think that people from France, The Netherlands, Spain, Scandinavia etc. thought of themselves as British up to 1776?

 

[Jonathan]

Why do you think that people from France, The Netherlands, Spain, Scandinavia etc. thought of themselves as British up to 1776?

I didn't claim that they did.

Britain established colonies in America. There are only three things that can happen to those colonies: they can stay British, they can split off from Britain, or they can be invaded by someone else. In the real world, they split off, and it was pretty inevitable that they would split off sooner or later.

However, the game removes the possibility of splitting off, so from the game's point of view they must either stay British or be invaded by someone else.

 

[warpstorm]

I repeat: if the world worked like Civilization, civs would not be allowed to split, in which case the USA would still be British (as it was up to 1776) and its people would mostly think of themselves as British, wherever their families came from originally. Thus, in the game (only), it makes sense to regard the USA as simply a continuation of the English civ.

By extension of this argument, the British, French, Spanish, and Germans would still be part of the Rome...

 

[Jonathan]

By extension of this argument, the British, French, Spanish, and Germans would still be part of the Rome...

I'm not sure that's right. Britain, Spain, and France didn't really secede from the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire became so weak that it was pushed over by barbarians.

I don't think Germany was ever a true part of the Roman Empire, but I may be wrong.

The game could handle the rise and fall of Roman Britain by assuming that one or more English cities remained in Scotland (which the Romans never conquered). Then, when the Romans withdrew their troops, the English came back again.

I'm not sure how the game could handle the history of France or Spain. Wait a minute, though, there's that little village of Gauls that never surrendered to the Romans... Asterix saves the day!

 

[MRM]

I don't think Germany was ever a true part of the Roman Empire, but I may be wrong.

It wasn't - at least most of it

the Roman Empire tried to conquere Germany in the Year 9 AD, but failed in Battle of the Teutoburg Forest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest