Should the Flintlock Mod Be HOF III Legal?

Should the Flintlock mod be HOF III legal?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 50.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 1 16.7%

  • Total voters
    6
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superslug

Still hatin' on Khan
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I rarely stick my head outside the HOF III forum, so the Flintlock mod has caught me off guard. However, it appears to have brought some new life to a game that I'm shocked didn't die years ago.

I'm slowly trying to understand it and read the primary thread about it, but I'm starting to see why some players are using it or advocating it. For now, it is technically against HOF rules. Should that remain the case, however?

My questions for the HOF III community are these:
1) Why should it be allowed?
2) Why shouldn't it be allowed?
3) What are your predictions if I allow it?

I expect this is going to be quite an interesting conversation.
 
I've not used it, primarily because it is not legal. I don't have an objection to legalizing it at this time, since I don't know much about it, but if it is legalized, I think it should get a new icon. Vanilla, PTW, and Conquests all have their own markers, so we can distinguish those games on the tables, and I think Flintlock should also. Some of the "bug fixes" seem like they would significantly alter AI gameplay, making it more like a new version.

Legalizing it will also require a new setup for checking that games meet the requirements, which will mean some significant effort by HOF staff.
 
I think that last sentence of CKS makes it clear for me: the game is too old, and the gamers are too few, to justify *any* additional effort by the staff.
t_x
 
I first saw the C3X mod (which is the official name of Flintlock's mod) talked about by tjs282 in a succession game thread @tjs282 . After reading what he said and some others, I tried it, and thought I wasn't going to submit anymore hall of fame games. I say this, because In 2022, I might have submitted a game at some level or thought about doing so if some version of it had been legal at the time. Perhaps someone else might submit a valid entry to the HoF if it becomes legal which they would not do so if Flintlock's mod remains illegal in all versions.

So, with respect to why should it get allowed; because doing so might result in more entries. Also, I believe that longtime players would enjoy the bugfixes and it's conveniences, such as arrows in the trading screen to go back and forth between AIs, and stack bombardment. I haven't used a Scientific Great Leader for a real scientific golden age, but it just makes so much more sense for a spaceship HoF game to have a scinetific golden age as a meaningful option than mindlessly rushing Newton's University or needing to wait for a while to use it. Seeing an AI actually have a cavalry army also made for an exciting experience. Though, I just shot it down with an army I had, and though once I saw an AI with a second offensive army, I took care of that also, and they won't cash rush armies and likely won't figure out how to mass farm armies, nor think to atttack the player's army first instead of weaker targets (maybe).

2) On the other hand reasons why to disallow it include that it has so many different possible settings. Perhaps most conspicuous, the AIs behavior can get changed by changing it's artillery build ratio. They can move non-captured artillery type units out of cities and use them offensively in any case with Flintlock's mod. I did find that fun. Except, later once I played on Sid, and it seemed like the AIs were poorer. A few days later I started thinking that with the AIs building artillery type units more, they might end up more economic problems more generally due to them building artillery type units instead of more expensive units (attackers and defenders of similar eras tend to cost more than artillery type units). That could change thier research rate. Playing an 80% archipelago map on Emperor (or maybe it was Monarch), I saw some AI drop off I think 2 units, one an attacker and one a catapult. Then the attacker disappered ... something that happens even in classic C3C. But I could capture a catapult, instead of needing to kill one unit instead of two like in classic civ III. I think a few people, not just one person, who have used versions before the recent lowering of the default artillery build ratio commented how they would just never build any artillery after their first war. Though, there were many designers, and no doubt they had some disagreements on what the game should be like also, arguably, some of the changes stray too far from the designers's intent or what they thought civ III should be like.

Though, perhaps the designers intended variation when in doubt, so changes more fit with why it should be allowed than why it should not be allowed.

Also, allowing all the settings that Flintlock's mod has might lead to "analysis of paraylsis" for some people. Them spending all sorts of time experimenting with it's multiple possible settings, instead of finishing a game and submitting it.

3) If you allow some version of it, I predict that it will get used and some of us will recommend using it when considering starting up a new game. I don't think any of the 20k tables likely to change because of it. I could imagine that some of the diplomatic or spaceship tables could have their dates bested with a scientific golden age as a meaningful possibility, if people had an interest in playing for those games. I can imagine more histographic entries appearing on those tables (just barely), since the convenience features I think make it more likely that players would finish a game, since they would feel it less of a grind. I predict more submissions than not if you allow some version of it.

Vanilla, PTW, and Conquests all have their own markers, so we can distinguish those games on the tables, and I think Flintlock should also.

@Quintillus said something similar elsewhere. I will third this.
 
Okay, I didn't even know the actual name of it. That's helpful.
 
Firstly, like 'slug, I didn't even know the Flintock Mod (C3X) existed and it took me a while to find the thread:

Secondly, if the Flintock Mod affects favorably the AI's or the Human Player's gameplay, by allowing it you wouldn't be comparing apples to apples in the Civ 3 HOF Tables. (I.e. Old entries would not include the Flintock Mod).

Thirdly, I've been playing Civ 3 for over 20 years and don't have any problems with the current Civ 3 HOF Rules.

P.s. However, I think it's interesting and informative that Flintock et al have highlighted improvements that could have been made to the original Civ 3 game. :goodjob: :goodjob:
 
Secondly, if the Flintock Mod affects favorably the AI's or the Human Player's gameplay, by allowing it you wouldn't be comparing apples to apples in the Civ 3 HOF Tables.

At the same time also though, some 20k tables have a similar thing going on. I mean comparing how an entry in PtW 1.27f or Civ 1.29f with great wonders only possible to rush by MGL with a C3C only possible to rush great wonders with an SGL doesn't seem like comparing apples to apples to me. Also, having vs. not having the Statue of Zeus makes a difference.

Also, consider the Demigod Huge Histographic table. The PtW Deity level entries have AIs able to grow more quickly since the cost factor is 6 (correct?), but the human player has more capable armies in the Conquests Demigod entries which have a cost factor of 7 (or at least everything I've read says that PtW armies aren't as powerful... I don't recall using them in PtW or Civ whichever I played a while back).

So, I'm not sure that another version would be bad, if we can all have access to it.
 
I agree with you 100%, Spoonwood. :thumbsup:

I don't know anything about Flintock's Mod but I assume it would not be easy to replace ALL the entries in an HOF Table!!?? (I.e. I like to see games in the HOF Tables that were submitted 5+ years ago!)

Also, I think CKS summed it up nicely:
......I don't have an objection to legalizing it at this time, since I don't know much about it, but if it is legalized, I think it should get a new icon. Vanilla, PTW, and Conquests all have their own markers, so we can distinguish those games on the tables, and I think Flintlock should also. Some of the "bug fixes" seem like they would significantly alter AI gameplay, making it more like a new version.

Legalizing it will also require a new setup for checking that games meet the requirements, which will mean some significant effort by HOF staff.

Sounds like it would be a lot more work for 'Slug et al!? :) (And for me: to read and understand the competitive benefits of Flintock's Mod! :lol:)
 
For several months I have been at the point where I was not going to be submitting any more games because I now can't play without C3X for just the quality-of-life issues. A vast majority of what C3X can do only applies to mods, then there are a number of bug fixes that are nice but not absolutely necessary to me and then there is the quality-of-life fixes.

The quality-of-life fixes that mean something to me-
1) When playing a milk-run on a huge map there is going to be thousands of clicks just for all the terraforming. Normally a player would have to click 4 times to irrigate a tile, but with C3X you only have to click once! At 57 years of age, this is a huge quality-of-life fix for me(and my fingers).

2) Also, on a milk-run, once you have mass irrigation, there will be huge numbers of specialists. I often find myself clicking past the one I want. With C3X, while holding down the shift button down, you can go backwards thru the specialist list.

3) Under any map size or win condition a player will have huge stacks of units in one tile, with the list often going off the screen. With C3X the units are grouped together and collated down to a more manageable size.
right click menu.jpg
 
I don't know anything about Flintock's Mod but I assume it would not be easy to replace ALL the entries in an HOF Table!!??

I think this hard for anyone to tell without knowing the exact allowed settings. For the settings that Ruin listed here I think not much much would change. Or what would change would consist of faster finish dates due to a scientific golden age.

It wouldn't be easier to get a faster 20k victory in many cases, since at least many of the top spots depend on SGL luck, I think for any settings that Flintlock has put forth.

Histographic entries might change some with artillery modification, since they can get captured, potentially making the AIs easier to conquer. Or buildings could get disbanded rush. But, my guess is that changes to score or finish date would be small at most. Maybe 100k entries also.

But, I think in maybe 90% of cases, it would not come as easy to replace all the entries in a HoF table with use that mod. The time factor alone would not be easy for people, I think. And for enough entries the potential benefit might be small (though again, how much benefit might exist would depend on allowed settings).
 
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I realize I am the one who caused the controversy, so my opinion may seem self-serving, but I agree with @Takeo: the main reason I used the mod was for the convenience features.

Thus I propose that it be allowed with strict, specific settings that everyone agrees would have no affect on HOF tables beyond say, the impact of modern players having faster computers and better mice.

- artillery settings must remain unchanged from base game
- scientific golden age bug must unfortunately remain unfixed
- what about army composition? Does the ai using armies correctly alter the integrity of the tables? Thoughts @Spoonwood?
 
- artillery settings must remain unchanged from base game

If we could all agree on a particular setting here, I would think having different setting acceptable. But, I'm inclined to agree here, because I think it too difficult to figure out how they best get changed. Also, they could make getting an entry onto a table, or improving one's quartermaster position, more difficult or easier. Since doubt seems inevitable here one or the other way with artillery changes as to what works out best, I think it best to not allow artillery changes.

- scientific golden age bug must unfortunately remain unfixed

But the lack of a scientific gold age was always a bug! I think it works out better to have SGLs produce a Scientific Golden Age for future entries, even if older entries lose their place. This doesn't seem to lead to the same sort of doubt about the game designer's intentions or what the correct setting should be as artillery changes do (or might). In this case, it seems abundantly clear that the correct "setting" consists of one where the player can use a scientific great leader and research technology more in fewer turns or with a lower percentage of the science slider going to science for 20 turns. I more strongly on this matter than others.

- what about army composition? Does the ai using armies correctly alter the integrity of the tables?

I believe that the lack of the AI using armies in Conquests was also a bug. An AI having a usable army ends up more of a threat. Killing one, I think, also more difficult than killing three units, though such can possibly get done with a single attack. I observed that they would build The Military Academy when I did a Huge Sid match among multiple AIs. Though the initial army might make things more difficult, the cost of the Military Academy might make them easier to conquer or slightly change their economy later. But also, they could also produce another army that way later and become more difficult to conquer. I'm not sure that in the end the balance though matters here. Since you asked me, and I think it was a bug that the AI doesn't use them in Conquests, I think it's alright for AIs to use armies (if the staff doesn't mind the extra work).

I don't think the integrity of the HoF tables gets threatened by improvements which fix bugs or conveniences which work somewhat similarly to a utility program.

The integrity problem more enters the picture to me if someone can use changing the .exe file in some way that the rest of the community could not have done or couldn't have known as a possibility.
 
Like CKS, while I've read about it, I haven't actually used the C3X mod, as nearly all the time I've spent playing Civ3 in recent years has been either a GOTM, or a HOF (I've also played a wider variety of games in general than I did 15 years ago). But I wouldn't be surprised if once I eventually try it, then like Takeo and Spoonwood, it would be hard to go back.

And the more I think about it (and see that we've arguably already lost a couple contributors due to its lack of support, and perhaps unknown new ones as well), the more I think the right option is to agree on a set of rules, and allow it with those rules, and with an icon like the Vanilla/PTW/Conquests one, for awareness if nothing else.

On artillery... I'm also inclined to say that for consistency, it's probably best to leave AI production unchanged. Although the stack bombard option for a human using artillery is probably the #1 feature of C3X that I've read about and would make it hard to go back from a quality-of-life improvement standpoint; I'd argue in favor of that, in the same vein as the improvements Takeo mentioned (that shift+click on specialists also sounds highly appealing, I'd missed it in my occasional perusal of C3X posts, but definitely have had that problem).

--------

One other item of note: There are periodically new versions of C3X. We've been through this before with official Firaxis patches, but any agreed-upon rulesets may have to be updated with new releases. And given the length of time games can take, I don't think it's realistic to say, "Release 17 is available, we're no longer accepting Release 16 games"... at least not for a considerable time and without asking, "Is anyone running a milkrun on Release 16?"
 
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The arrows in the trading screen when talking to say Henry, so you can go and talk to Elizabeth just by clicking on arrows is another convenient feature.

The suggested autofills for gold is another time-saving feature, if one would have haggled otherwise.
 
I realize I am the one who caused the controversy...
I wouldn't call it a controversy, and your submissions were only part of the reason I decided to take a deeper look into this. @Spoonwood has been advocating for this mod. When a two-time 88,000-pt. Sid player voices an opinion about how the HOF should be, I'm gonna listen for at least a few minutes.
 
I wouldn't call it a controversy, and your submissions were only part of the reason
I just said this bc I wanted my opinion on the subject to be viewed as that of "active, mediocre player advocating for something that would be helpful/potentially harmless" rather than suspended ballplayer: "hey fellas, corking bats should be legal, amirite?"
@Spoonwood has been advocating for this mod.
The suggested autofills for gold is another time-saving feature
I emailed Suede about the mod a couple years ago after cumulatively spending several hours of my own life watching him haggle in his videos, but he said he was worried it was malware.
 
But the lack of a scientific gold age was always a bug!
I absolutely agree with you but the spaceship / diplo tables are filled with people who submitted game with Civ having this bug, which is why I would think if the CXC mod were adopted, we'd have to agree to Conquests rules.
I believe that the lack of the AI using armies in Conquests was also a bug.
What about the AI not attacking healthy armies? I think there are long lists of debatable bugs, but I think that keeping the "bugs" in and only using for convenience features is the right thing to do. Now where do I get the mod? :D
 
which is why I would think if the CXC mod

C3X mod. Though, CXC mod does sound like a funny mod that imposes tight city spacing.

What about the AI not attacking healthy armies?

Soren Johnson who designed civ III's AI said in some talk that they tried not to design a "good AI" (in the sense of intelligent), but rather a "fun AI".

I think the AIs not attacking healthy armies with enough defensive strength if not having enough firepower as more of a feature (note they will attack armies when their units move around on patrol even if healthy sometimes). If the AIs attacked healthy armies, then they would lose a fair number of units. Then players would, sooner or later, make defensive armies to destroy any AI attackers or waves of them. Since AIs don't attack healthy armies, players more often have to kill units that come into their borders and can't quite attack a city or end up having to defend cities more often. A battle in a city to me sounds more exciting than a battle out in the countryside with armies. Needing to kill AI offensive units also rewards player aggression. Men shooting down the enemy while charging at them on horseback sounds more fun to me than having a bunch of rifleman all bunched together shooting down multiple invaders. Offensive war sounds more exciting than defensive war.

AIs might use a 12/12 cavalry army to attack a 12/12 cavalry army in some version of the C3X mod. I don't know. When I saw their armies, I think I first saw them with my army, and maybe later had some unit attack with one of their armies. But, I tried to make sure I shot their army dead before they had an opportunity to shoot mine dead.

Also, I think an AI cavalry will attack a 3 unit horseman army if fully healthy, though I'm not sure.

EMan posted a link above for the mod. The download section is in the history section of that link. The installation and usage notes can get found by scrolling down from EMan's link. Well, I'm talking about the C3X mod as it stands now... not some approved HoF version.

I think there are long lists of debatable bugs, but I think that keeping the "bugs"

I agree for debatable bugs. But, is there debate about the lack of a scientific golden age being a bug? To me it doesn't seem like there could be a serious debate about the lack of a scientific golden age as a bug. I mean, if you use an SGL in Conquests with the relevant icon, it says something like "Scientific Golden Age", even though that doesn't change beaker output.
 
I agree for debatable bugs. But, is there debate about the lack of a scientific golden age being a bug? To me it doesn't seem like there could be a serious debate about the lack of a scientific golden age as a bug. I mean, if you use an SGL in Conquests with the relevant icon, it says something like "Scientific Golden Age", even though that doesn't change beaker output.
I don't think the SGL bug is a debatable bug, either. It's a flat out bug. We all know how its supposed to work if implemented correctly, I'm not sure there is any doubt. My point, however, is that with respect to the undisputable bugs, the HOF tables are full of people subject to those bugs and having new entries not subject to it seems unfair.
 
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