Should they bring back vessalism?

[Reginleif]

Did anyone else like vessalism in Civ IV, should they bring it back for Civ V, should anything about it be changed?

 

[bonafide11]

The word you're looking for is "vassalage."

If they brought it back, they should just make it so the AI's last few cities just become puppet cities. They basically already have it with puppet cities and city-states though.

 

[elthrasher]

There's already an AI ragequit mechanic where the AI will give you everything they have except one city in exchange for 10 turns of peace. This is a bit inelegant, but it's better than AI randomly vassaling to one another the way they did in Civ IV.

The advantage of the new mechanic is that when you're kicking the AI's butt it will give all it's stuff to YOU, not some other AI.

 

[Celevin]

The problem with vassalage is it made Civ4 too easy. AIs would hardly ever take out other AIs, instead keeping them as a vassal. When I turned the option off I noticed the game greatly increased in difficulty as runaway AIs were common, especially on Pangaea.

 

[Arsenic Steel]

I have an idea. How about instead of thinking of vassalage "as seen in civIV" we pretend that old mechanics can by updated and improved.

Obtaining a vassal state is a different from puppet cities. The proposition of vassalage can occur when not even at war and vassal states are able to leave their protector at anytime provided they have enough land/wealth/status. Vassals keep smaller civilizations in the game for trading, diplomacy, and competition if the vassal is not part of the player's empire.

 

[Polobo]

I would like to see a vassalage type system in place in the future; especially given the happiness mechanics making taking on those extra three or four cities a tricky proposition.

Another setup that I like from the more "strategic/world" games out there is that you don't actually take full control of a city or land until peace is made and you win the concession in the peace agreement.

Lastly I would like to see happy/unhappy related to your current military situation - so that if you are winning a war you get extra happy that can go toward appeasing the new cities whereas as you lose the war you get additional unhappy likely forcing you to relinquish territory and go for peace instead of trying to hold out. Something like every two units you kill you get one happy (-1 for lost units) and +/- 3 happy for each city occupied during the conquest. Include some form of "decay" as well.

Vassals would give you a non-decaying happiness boost and various diplomatic and trade bonuses as well.

 

[Camikaze]

I think puppet states are meant to be the vassals of Civ5. The implementation is very different, but it's probably the equivalent. I'm not sure that going back to the vassal system would be the best move, but altering the puppet system to be more like the vassal system might be something worth considering.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I think puppet states are meant to be the vassals of Civ5. The implementation is very different, but it's probably the equivalent. I'm not sure that going back to the vassal system would be the best move, but altering the puppet system to be more like the vassal system might be something worth considering.

Designing puppets so they neither contributed OR detracted from your empire would be an idea.

You don't pay mantenance for their buildings, but you don't get their gold
You don't count them as part of your unhappiness, but you don't get any science they generate
You don't count them for social policies, but you don't get any culture they generate For social policies.
They don't give you any GPP
They give you no Meritocracy bonuses,
They give no trade route income
etc.

The only thing they Would give you is the resources/roads in their territory.

 

[Camikaze]

There needs to be some reward for warfare, for reasons of fun gameplay. I guess the reward in this case would be that you'd deprive your opponents of access to the cities and their potential, and you'd get those resources and free access. I guess it could work, given that you can always just annex as well. I was thinking more along the lines of making puppet cities not part of your empire at all, like in Civ4, but with the difference that the old civ would not continue. They'd be a bit more like forever compliant city states. This may be essentially the same as what you've suggested.

 

[aegyptrulesyew]

Um a puppet state is something of more modern era concepts... a vassal state serves HIS LORD.

You guys should brush up on the difference because you sound silly discussing how it should work when you don't even understand where it came from.

 

[aegyptrulesyew]

oh and for the record, yes vassalage should be brought back.

A Corporate nation such as America has 'Puppet' states. Paid for actors doing the real money powers business...

While a Vassal is owned by a MONARCH which follows the whole religion path.

TBH civ5 seems like a step backwards in s lot of areas. Thank goodness fore mods...

 

[Windsor]

I would very much like a vassal/colony-feature. Puppet cities otoh is a feature I would like to get rid of.

A vassal/colony-system makes it easier to make a system where an empire can actually fall apart, a feature that could greatly combat the snowball effect and make the late game more interesting. Problem with puppet cities is that they are just single cities. With vassals the cities have a common underlying desire to again be a free nation. Puppets have no leader and no knowledge of each other. Vassals have a leader which might ask Napoleon to get some help if they declare independence Vassals "thinks for themselves". Puppets are only nerfed boring cities you are forced to use because of some lame restrictions.

Vassals have a great potential for interesting diplo and other features, such as having a vassal which is a police state is imo only possible with a vassal-approach and not puppet cities.

 

[Camikaze]

One other key difference between the two is that with puppets, you can completely take over control on a whim. There is nothing you have to do but expend a couple of clicks. This didn't happen with vassals. The risk is not really in place with puppet states. Maybe that risk factor needs to be taken into account.

 

[SpearMan153]

I'd like to see some kind of capitulation. Not exactly like civ4 vassals something more along the lines of city states.

that and colonies.