Should Trade Depots Be Buyable?

Should Trade Depots Be Buyable?

  • Yes

    Votes: 55 53.4%
  • No

    Votes: 48 46.6%

  • Total voters
    103
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JokerJace

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• Trade Depots can no longer be purchased with Energy.

How do you think about this aspect of the fall patch? I'll go ahead and repeat some of the points reagarding this that were made in another thread:

While it certainly solves the problem, it is still a very inelegant solution. Removing TR completely would also solve the problem of TR being too powerful. It wouldn't be de desired approach, though. It's the most straightforward solution possible. "Fixed with a chainsaw".

I'm pretty firmly on the "it's an inelegant chainsaw" side for making Trade Depots non-buyable. It's an ugly hack. Either trade routes are still OP, where making Trade Depots non-buyable won't do a whole lot, or they aren't OP, and then let 'em be purchased. Design should be going for maximal clarity; right now, "buildings are buyable, Wonders / end-game victory conditions aren't" works fine. It's certainly possible they could sell some kind of a distinction here within buildings, e.g. "All Supremacy buildings are not buyable", but "certain buildings that were too good in the previous patch are not buyable" is weird and breaks the mechanical expectation that buildings are buyable.

And while I might agree removing the purchase option for a single normal building disrupts the design pattern, so to speak, calling it immersion-breaking is rather silly when the concept of somehow "supercharging" construction with energy to be done much faster is quite silly in itself, to begin with.

But making a causeless exception to a system is even more absurd, no matter how illogical you think the system is in the first place. Some people like SnowFire call it 'mechanical expectations'. I call it 'breaking the lore'. And again, just because the lore requires a certain amount of suspension of disbelief doesn't mean that anything goes. The lore might be illogical from a POV based in our universe. Yes. Still it should maintain it's internal logic. Fiction doesn't imply that any rule should be suspended at will. That's the difference between fiction and arbitrary nonsense. Don't you think?

What do YOU think?

EDIT: screwed up the explanations in the poll... just vote yes or no... stupid me

Moderator Action: Poll fixed.
 
1. It's not inelegant.

2. It already exists in the design pattern r.e. Wonders and has been applied to the Mind Stem non-Wonder structure as well.

3. No reasons have been given to support the Mind Stem that don't also support the Trade Depot.

Voted no :)
 
1. It's not inelegant.

Yes, it is. Saying "lets change a basic mechanic of the game because we can't think of a way to balance an unrelated mechanic" is, in fact, the definition of an inelegant solution to this problem. Short of just saying "screw it" and getting rid of trade routes altogether I can't think of anything more inelegant they could have done in fact. It gets even worse when it turns out the change doesn't actually make the game more balanced, it just throws the balance out in a different direction.

2. It already exists in the design pattern r.e. Wonders and has been applied to the Mind Stem non-Wonder structure as well.

3. No reasons have been given to support the Mind Stem that don't also support the Trade Depot.

The more sensible solution with mind stems would be to classify them as wonders (although that breaks the rule about wonders being unique, but whatever, I care far less about that), or increase the cost to purchase mind stems in a big way, perhaps even making them exponentially more expensive each time you buy one ala great people in CiV. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact the change to trade depots is a bad solution to the issue of how to balance trade routes.
 
I don't like the "non-buyable trade depot" much. I certainly prefer it over the pre-patch trade depot rush... but it strikes me as clunky and inelegant.

Personally, I believe it'd be more elegant to tweak trade routes somewhat have have the number of trade routes per city depend on the size of the city (1-3: 0 trade routes, 4-6: 1 trade route, 7+: 2 trade routes) - but I have no doubt people would find that just as arbitrary and clunky in other ways. ;)
 
Yes, it's only a building that grants little to no benefits by itself.
OTOH, I'd make trade units non buyable though.
 
This is just ridiculous and will potentially damage the enjoyment of the games. Trade Depot is now a very essential building in the game.
 
Manannan, it's not a basic game mechanic that has been broken. Buildings are either buyable, or they're not. These are both valid states for a building in the game.

You have to look at the why. Why are Wonders limited? Because they're powerful. Because in-lore they're unique. Two reasons, one rooted in design. But that doesn't explain why you can't buy them. You can't buy them purely for balance reasons. There are absolutely no lore reasons why this is the case.

Ergo, we've established a precedent for limiting buildings based on power. The Trade Depot is powerful. Thus, balancing it via this method is viable and makes sense within the game.

Whether or not you agree the change is balanced is another debate entirely.

On the subject of the Mind Stem, this further exposes your motivations. You care far less about Wonders bring unique than you do buildings being buyable, which showcases that this is a personally motivated decision (i.e. by how much you care about the mechanic as supposed to actual arguments about the design and purpose of the constraint).

What if someone else placed as much importance on Wonders being unique, with your Mind Stem suggestion? Who would be right?

The answer is nobody because you're debating based on a personal opinion.
 
Saving/reserving energy for Trade Depot buys was an essential part of my game. Reverse this decision ASAP Firaxis. Patches are meant to make the game better, not worse.
 
I think part of the problem is that it breaks consistency: all buildings are buyable apart from one. Where as wonders are consistent: they are all unbuyable. In making a singular building unbuyable, it subverts expectations and "intuition".

Regarding the mind stem: that's annoying as well but I can somewhat excuse it as it's directly related to victories - but really, I'd prefer to just see a new category of things that can be built, something like "city projects" where you put things that can be built but not bought.

That would open up some new design space as well and it would keep the game consistent and intuitive - you would have a clear list of "types" then:

  • Buildings: 1/city, buyable
  • City Project: 1/city, non-buyable
  • National Wonder: 1/civ, non-buyable
  • World Wonder: 1/game, non-buyable
 
Many posters here were very, very vocal and downright abusive about how getting up a city with Trade Routes was too fast to be enjoyable. Congratulations. You got what you wanted.
 
It doesn't change much. Buy the recycler or autoplant instead while hard building the depot, or buy the caravans when done with the depot.

Is it weird that I can buy any other building and not the depot? Sure. Does it ruin the game? Not the slightest.

If firaxis thinks it will help with game pace then i'm all for giving it a shot.
 
I think part of the problem is that it breaks consistency: all buildings are buyable apart from one. Where as wonders are consistent: they are all unbuyable. In making a singular building unbuyable, it subverts expectations and "intuition".

Regarding the mind stem: that's annoying as well but I can somewhat excuse it as it's directly related to victories - but really, I'd prefer to just see a new category of things that can be built, something like "city projects" where you put things that can be built but not bought.

That would open up some new design space as well and it would keep the game consistent and intuitive - you would have a clear list of "types" then:

  • Buildings: 1/city, buyable
  • City Project: 1/city, non-buyable
  • National Wonder: 1/civ, non-buyable
  • World Wonder: 1/game, non-buyable

Does it equally bother your sense of consistency or intuitiveness that in Civ V BNW you can rush-buy a settler, worker or any military unit, but not an archaeologist?
 
Colonist is the only unit that stops growth while it's building, and uses the food for extra production.
 
I think part of the problem is that it breaks consistency: all buildings are buyable apart from one. Where as wonders are consistent: they are all unbuyable. In making a singular building unbuyable, it subverts expectations and "intuition".

Regarding the mind stem: that's annoying as well but I can somewhat excuse it as it's directly related to victories - but really, I'd prefer to just see a new category of things that can be built, something like "city projects" where you put things that can be built but not bought.

That would open up some new design space as well and it would keep the game consistent and intuitive - you would have a clear list of "types" then:

  • Buildings: 1/city, buyable
  • City Project: 1/city, non-buyable
  • National Wonder: 1/civ, non-buyable
  • World Wonder: 1/game, non-buyable

Maybe it would be a nice compromise to remove the trade depot altogether and introduce the "equip city for trade" project. Not too fixed on the name, though. ^^

Does it equally bother your sense of consistency or intuitiveness that in Civ V BNW you can rush-buy a settler, worker or any military unit, but not an archaeologist?

Personally I always considered them to be more like GPs. Together with the space ship parts that were tied to a VC as is the mind stem now these all make a lot more sense to me than arbitrary banning one building that is indistinguishable by any category from any other profane building.
 
Also the people that voted NO should consider, that the poll does not ask whether the patch should be reverted or not. I think we all agree that the unpatched game still was worse.
 
Personally I always considered them to be more like GPs.

Whether you mean Great Prophets or Great Persons, this makes no sense. You can't generate either through the production queue, or buy either with any currency other than faith, while you can ONLY generate archaeologists through the production queue. The fact is, archaeologists are BNW's explorer units, and you can rush-buy explorers in BE.

There is no "intuitive" reason that archaeologists should not be purchasable with gold just like scouts, settlers and workers -- other than concerns about game balance. Given the limited number of antiquity sites, if archaeologists could be purchased with gold, the human player could hoard gold in anticipation of spamming archaeologists to grab as many antiquity sites as it can, or the AI (which can generate more gold than the human player) would do it, essentially eliminating antiquity hunting from the human player's game options.

Good game balance requires that neither the human player nor the AI be able to abuse the antiquity site mechanic, but disallowing rush-buying of archaeologists is as much a break from consistency and intuition as the new trade depot mechanic. And yet is is arguably necessary to balance the game.
 
Does it equally bother your sense of consistency or intuitiveness that in Civ V BNW you can rush-buy a settler, worker or any military unit, but not an archaeologist?
Frankly? A little bit! :p

I think making them dependent on a special strategic resource (granted by a national wonder) would've been more consistent and would've achieved the same - but I understand that that would've been more complex for, effectively, no reason.

Doesn't stop me from being slightly bothered by it! ;)
 
Whether you mean Great Prophets or Great Persons, this makes no sense. You can't generate either through the production queue, or buy either with any currency other than faith, while you can ONLY generate archaeologists through the production queue. The fact is, archaeologists are BNW's explorer units, and you can rush-buy explorers in BE.

There is no "intuitive" reason that archaeologists should not be purchasable with gold just like scouts, settlers and workers -- other than concerns about game balance. Given the limited number of antiquity sites, if archaeologists could be purchased with gold, the human player could hoard gold in anticipation of spamming archaeologists to grab as many antiquity sites as it can, or the AI (which can generate more gold than the human player) would do it, essentially eliminating antiquity hunting from the human player's game options.

Good game balance requires that neither the human player nor the AI be able to abuse the antiquity site mechanic, but disallowing rush-buying of archaeologists is as much a break from consistency and intuition as the new trade depot mechanic. And yet is is arguably necessary to balance the game.

While the decision was definitely made because of balance considerations, it still makes sense to me lorewise. Archaeologists are somewhere between military units and Great Persons. There could be more units in this slot theoretically. But what is this slot? It's units that need an education that can't be accelerated beyond a certain amount by economic means and that is independet from the larger focus of your civilzation.
 
Many posters here were very, very vocal and downright abusive about how getting up a city with Trade Routes was too fast to be enjoyable. Congratulations. You got what you wanted.

I guess we're unlucky then that you chose a very humble display of your opinion. :lol:
 
Manannan, it's not a basic game mechanic that has been broken. Buildings are either buyable, or they're not. These are both valid states for a building in the game.

It absolutely is a basic mechanic. Buildings can be purchased with energy/gold has been a basic mechanic for some time in the Civ series as a matter of fact. Deciding "we're making this very specific building unbuyable because we fudged the balance really bad" is taking out a mechanic because you're unsure of how to balance something else, plain and simple.

You have to look at the why. Why are Wonders limited? Because they're powerful. Because in-lore they're unique. Two reasons, one rooted in design. But that doesn't explain why you can't buy them. You can't buy them purely for balance reasons. There are absolutely no lore reasons why this is the case.

No, you can't buy wonders, but we're not talking about wonders, we are talking about run of the mill every town is gonna (or at least can) build one of these things buildings, that can be bought. If this was CiV and they said "this one particular wonder is too strong, from now on you cannot bulb it with a great engineer while this one over here is kinda weak so that one can be bought" what you're saying might kinda be related to what we're talking about, but we aren't talking about that hypothetical situation, we're talking about something else entirely.


No, not ergo. The sky is blue, ergo so are some flowers. You're talking about two entirely unrelated things.

we've established a precedent for limiting buildings based on power. The Trade Depot is powerful. Thus, balancing it via this method is viable and makes sense within the game.

No. We have established a precedent that wonders cannot be bought with money. The precedent for buildings is that you can buy them with energy. Further, even if "they're too powerful, you cannot buy them anymore" was an actual precedent in the series, trade depots are not powerful, they are a building that allow you to build a unit that is powerful. The logical thing to do would be to actually try to balance trade routes instead of ham-handedly changing a basic mechanic and hoping it results in balance. I mean honestly, what's the logical conclusion to that line of thinking? "The Augmentary is really powerful with it's one quest option activated, so you can't buy it anymore you have to hard build it" instead of just changing the quest reward?

Whether or not you agree the change is balanced is another debate entirely.

Sure (for the record I view the game as still being horribly unbalanced), but you haven't asked if it actually balances the game yet. My point is still that it's inelegant (ie: bad) game design to ignore the mechanic that is actually broken, and instead break another mechanic to try to fix the problem. Again, I'm pretty sure that's the definition of inelegant game design.

On the subject of the Mind Stem, this further exposes your motivations. You care far less about Wonders bring unique than you do buildings being buyable, which showcases that this is a personally motivated decision (i.e. by how much you care about the mechanic as supposed to actual arguments about the design and purpose of the constraint).

No. I care less about mind stems primarily because they were a less broken feature in the game than trade routes were/are, but also because I can see an argument being made for them being classified as a "wonder", or more accurately to classify them as whatever spaceship parts were in CiV if I need to make this a bit more clear for you. There's an actual precedent there since you're so eager to show one. The better solution is still to rework the mechanic that is actually broken (the victory condition itself, and how spammed cities make it too easy to complete rapidly by spamming mind stems/xeno sanctuaries) but I'm more willing to allow them this non-sense. That is not confirmation bias (which I think is the term you were looking for), try again.

What if someone else placed as much importance on Wonders being unique, with your Mind Stem suggestion? Who would be right?

The answer is nobody because you're debating based on a personal opinion.

No, this is not an entirely subjective debate, we are not debating whether or not we prefer Justin Bieber or Taylor Swift (the answer clearly is <3 both equally before anyone asks). We are not making up definitions as we go along, we are talking about things that are tangible or at least definable and exist in a reality we co-habit. Sorry, but you don't get to throw your arms up in the air and declare "well that's just like, your opinion man" on this one. If we were asking "does this change make the game more fun" then by all means, that is personal opinion that I can't argue with you over but we aren't; we're asking if the game designers have done a good job in trying to balance their game.
 
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