Should we add more late game buildings?

[hokath]

As the question says.
I wanted to get a sense of general sentiment before going any further with proposals and so forth.

You can find an implemented selection of possible buildings in the linked post (the mod to use is linked as .zip in OP, and you can delete the parts you don't want to use)

[Extension] Post in thread 'Hokath's Changes'

Jul 4, 2024

Recon Rework
Recently scout units have changed to address movement concerns, but I think there are two big problemos still remaining:
1) The map is revealed too early. Your starting Pathfinder explores too much of the world by itself too soon. (There is a concomitant 'super scout' problem)
2) The Trailblazer line is required for scouting but results in a much weaker unit. This is especially a problem for an AI with a Recon-line UU.

Below I've made changes to address these two things. By making the Trailblazer line into combat promotions based on terrain, we choose two...

• hokath

• 

Also linked there is an earlier mod it draws inspiration from.

There comes a point in the later game when you don't have anything to build for large periods of time in most of your Cities.
Especially happens when you go Industry, I find.
Working Processes is not the most riveting gameplay (though that doesn't mean it wouldn't dominate spending on these new buildings, so we should consider the % conversion too if that was thought to be an issue)

 

[azum4roll]

Not without also lengthening late game. That means delaying CV and DV (to Information Era), and also making late game policy and tech costs higher.

 

[redrum68]

Might be better to clarify the second option as "Yes, integrate the late game buildings from that mod basically as-is" as otherwise its unclear whether you are proposing the entire mod or the just buildings portion.

 

[hokath]

@azum4roll
I agree those things should probably happen also, but could you elaborate why it is necessary to add more buildings?

@redrum68
That's right, just the buildings

 

[Zuizgond]

Not without also lengthening late game. That means delaying CV and DV (to Information Era), and also making late game policy and tech costs higher.

This. My games always end in modern era with cultural or domination victory. Guess we should find a way to make CV a bit more difficult to achieve.

 

[redrum68]

FWIW, I voted to integrate as-is as I think late game would be better with than without the extra buildings even if they aren't perfect and other late game adjustments aren't made. The one thing that probably should be looked at is whether these buildings are often worth building vs processes though as I think we have a number of late game buildings already that are rarely worth building given their cost and limited turns remaining to recoup the investment.

That being said, I agree that DV and CV probably need to be pushed out a little bit and maybe tech/policy costs should be looked at but that could be done after merging these.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s a bit overwhelming to ask about integrating all of these. Surely some ideas are stronger than others. I don’t think it’s productive to present this as an omnibus.

 

[Trumtram]

I'm with azum4roll, the late game is too short right now. Once I'll get to the information era, there aren't many turns left to play. It goes by so fast. Even stuff like the power plants I just build to build something. I'm usually more occupied with upgrading everything in a rapid pace because new units are available much quicker than in previous era.
I mean, at this stage of the game you can bulb GP, usually get a lot of Science and Culture, and therefore are more or less "managing" till the victory screen. Of course, there could be some warfare in between everything, but the main point still stands, I think.

 

[balparmak]

New buildings look good, especially mutually exclusive ones can help with the "every building in every city" situation we have now. Imho it's better to iterate over a working model, if maintainers and dedicated players don't see them as game-breaking, we can just integrate.

I’m not sure about making the game longer. Honestly, I’d rather see science victory come earlier instead. The late game is boring by design, nothing new happens after aircraft, turns take longer as unit numbers increase, but you’re not making any engaging decisions, it's all busywork, build whatever's available, upgrade units, mostly just right clicking on notifications.

Unless there’s an overhaul or new mechanics to make it fun, stretching the weakest phase doesn’t seem like a good move.

 

[azum4roll]

The late game is boring by design

That's only because there isn't anything interesting unlocked there. You're just waiting to win the game.

If we slow down the game up to early information era, we can put more stuff in modern and atomic that are worth going for.

 

[FinMc]

A few thoughts:

I'm extremely in favor of mutually exclusive buildings and specializing cities. I think that while that's a massive lift in terms of game design/balance, if VP managed to make a compelling "specialize cities" game loop, it would cement itself even harder as the pinnacle of 4x gaming.

Culture victory happens WAY too fast, and stadiums/broadcast towers are OP. Every game I play ends with me attacking the top AI because they're getting way too close to winning a CV while the world is in Atomic era.

Turns taking too long can be addressed by doing another pass at unit numbers. I think ~120 supply should be upper limit on a standard/large map for a big warmongering civ. Maybe ~100 if you don't spec into warring (actual numbers may change with balance, I'm just vibing).

 

[azum4roll]

Turns taking too long can be addressed by doing another pass at unit numbers. I think ~120 supply should be upper limit on a standard/large map for a big warmongering civ. Maybe ~100 if you don't spec into warring (actual numbers may change with balance, I'm just vibing).

How much supply does each player have currently?

 

[hokath]

@FinMc have you looked at the Seminary vs Polytechnic in my update of EE?
It's quite hard to come up with specialization I feel like. That one, and this one, I'm happy with. But I've tried to think of others to no success.
I don't think just having a couple that are like: this one is 5% culture, that one is 5% science is that interesting. Maybe you disagree?
It's perhaps a space for National Wonders to fill? We have some important specialization there already, but there is an extent to which you tend to stack them in the capital. The only time I don't seem to do this is the Diplo line.

 

[Trumtram]

I'm totally on board with cutting down on some culture/tourism-modifiers. Reducing those outputs on museums, broadcast towers, and the interpretive center might be worthwhile to consider. Yield reduction in general would be a nice focus for the future. There is sometimes so much happening with certain buildings. Also, the unit supply needs to drop a bit more for the endgame. I'm super happy with the reduced supply in the earlier eras, but it still explodes during later ones.

Right now I feel more general buildings would just unnecessarily bloat the endgame, while the climax of each game is probably (and rightfully, at least for me) the midgame.

 

[Cacaso]

Spoiler :

I find the idea of increasing the number of buildings in the late game interesting. However, there's a "Nightclub" building that I'd like to see addressed so that the image used isn't suggestive (even if only very slightly).

Due to my religious practice, I'd like this to be taken into account. I believe the mod is fantastic, but this could be a small downside (albeit only for a portion of the game's audience).

Since I don't yet know exactly what will be done, or which building images will be used, I just wanted some attention to this issue if possible, if it can be done without major difficulties for the modders who will implement this in the game.

I'm very grateful for the attention and for the great effort everyone in the community puts into making this great mod.

 

[CppMaster]

What's the rationale for more buildings?

Anyway, if it'd improve game balance then sure. Those buildings won't be mandatory anyway

 

[trinket]

While I use the modmod regularly, I think VP is suffering from yield bloat already.
Also consider synergy with existing features (more buildings = boost to Progress) and gameplay (endless building queue for wide play).

Especially late game, I'd rather have new buildings you can use to further specialize certain cities instead of the usual yield generators that you'd build everywhere.

 

[detroitrex]

A few thoughts:

I'm extremely in favor of mutually exclusive buildings and specializing cities. I think that while that's a massive lift in terms of game design/balance, if VP managed to make a compelling "specialize cities" game loop, it would cement itself even harder as the pinnacle of 4x gaming.

Culture victory happens WAY too fast, and stadiums/broadcast towers are OP. Every game I play ends with me attacking the top AI because they're getting way too close to winning a CV while the world is in Atomic era.

Turns taking too long can be addressed by doing another pass at unit numbers. I think ~120 supply should be upper limit on a standard/large map for a big warmongering civ. Maybe ~100 if you don't spec into warring (actual numbers may change with balance, I'm just vibing).

Count me as voting for fewer units throughout the whole game. I'd cut these numbers in half.

 

[Trumtram]

So, reducing yield bloat is a common ground over here? I'm all for it. The game could become a bit more refined with some reductions here and there.

 

[redrum68]

@FinMc have you looked at the Seminary vs Polytechnic in my update of EE?
It's quite hard to come up with specialization I feel like. That one, and this one, I'm happy with. But I've tried to think of others to no success.
I don't think just having a couple that are like: this one is 5% culture, that one is 5% science is that interesting. Maybe you disagree?
It's perhaps a space for National Wonders to fill? We have some important specialization there already, but there is an extent to which you tend to stack them in the capital. The only time I don't seem to do this is the Diplo line.

Lack of city specialization is one of the only major complaints I have with VP as you tend to just spam all buildings in all cities (mostly due to lots of flat yields and limited pop/percentage yields). The core issue though is that the happiness system is based on needs across all categories which makes specialization more difficult as you end up with lots of unhappiness if you don't develop cities somewhat evenly across needs. But my take is more pop and percentage bonuses on mid/late game buildings would help push towards specialization (prod vs science vs culture cities) and you would just need to figure out how to handle needs then. This would also help address the very wide meta.