Should you take Futurism, ever? (What about this game?!)

[PaleJackal]

I'm considering going Autocracy and picking up Futurism after Industrial Espionage. Futurism is bad, but I think my situation might be the best possible for Futurism.

I've been playing militarily as the Ottomans since ~3000 B.C. when I found Denmark's capital 10 hexes from my start and they were expanding on our small peninsula like crazy, on a Huge Oval (high water level) map with 8 AIs and 4 human players on Emperor. I've neglected Tourism and have not produced a single GWAM, except a free one from the Louvre. I had to go a little into Exploration when I'm fighting Portugal on the high seas, right? Capturing Portugese Naus is great, BTW.

I also, probably foolishly, went for religion (2nd game of BNW, and I love religion) but managed to get the Glory of God reformation belief.

So far it seems like neither of the two remaining players (I wiped out one) are going for a cultural victory, and I think the most tourism dominant AI is Isabella, who also went Autocracy. Other two players went Freedom already, and Portugal went Order. Don't think any other Civs have selected an ideology yet. IIRC, Isabella is producing about 40 or so tourism per turn in the early modern era, I might be wrong.

So, Futurism? Produce some GWAM for 100 GP points each, and use Faith to buy one each? Producing about 90 Faith per turn currently.

Ultimately I guess I'd get Industrial Espionage / Futurism / National Healthcare for Tier 1, since I think I'm probably too poor to be buying units, even with Mobilization, and I've got about 25-30 ships... which will be fun if I ever get gunboat diplomacy. Might have to keep Portugal alive to farm more ships and for coastal raiding.

So, is this the situation Futurism was made for - domination-style play where you neglected tourism early on? Or is it rubbish / not worth selecting even with these circumstances and Glory of God?

 

[fyar]

Yeah, it's pretty much never worth selecting, but the same could be true of several of the tier 1 autocracy tenets. I could imagine a scenario where, if you don't need any more units, and don't have any city walls, the benefit from Futurism might only make a marginal difference (maybe a cultural victory 2 turns earlier), but it's better than the other tenets which might have no benefit whatsoever in your situation.

 

[PaleJackal]

I was thinking that it might be good for cultural / tourism defense, since I read that tourism can also act defensively.

Also, I don't see the other Tier 1 autocracy beliefs being that useful, especially since I have no walls, and Elite Forces (apparently) doesn't give +25% combat strength to wounded units... it just reduces the wounded combat penalty by 25%.

So, I guess it's between Mobilization and Futurism, unless Elite Forces works differently than I thought? Though I guess United Front could be useful if you're going to get Gunboat Diplomacy... Autocracy Tier 1 beliefs are pretty awful.

 

[fyar]

Not sure about Elite Forces but I think you're right.

If you have enough military and can't really afford to purchase / maintain any more units, you can safely skip Mobilization and United Front. Even still, I might prefer Fortified Borders to Futurism... you can always build walls just for the happiness, and this late in the game, walls and castles may only take 1-2 turns to build anyway.

If you have no intention of doing that, then take Futurism.

 

[PaleJackal]

According to an online guide, it mentions +1 happiness for castles and above. If it does include walls, I could definitely see building walls and castles, instead and ignoring Futurism.

Thanks, BTW.

 

[Matthew.]

What does this come out to, like an average of 10 tourism per turn about? Figuring ~10 GWAM's generated from turn 200 to 300, and that may even be on the high end. I doubt it will be much higher than that, if at all.

I suppose it could be used to counter the theming bonuses from things like the Louvre. Ya know, can push those military techs while ignoring some of those wonders yet stay competitive with tourism.

Then again, conquering great works through war will put you way ahead and +10 tourism per turn is still practically nothing.

Yeah, tough to see the worth of this policy, especially since it kicks in so late (Industrial era at earliest). Here is a question: How much would it need to give before you would consider the policy worth it? 300? 500?

 

[Gort]

It really needs to be a scaling bonus. 100 tourism is nice right at the start of industrial, but once you're generating over a thousand per turn, it's nothing.

 

[DemonMaster]

It really needs to be a scaling bonus. 100 tourism is nice right at the start of industrial, but once you're generating over a thousand per turn, it's nothing.

I don't know what game/size/speed you get over 1000 tourism per turn, but regarding Futurism, it is rather worthless if you are planning to go for a cultural victory, but if you go for another type of victory you will at least get enough so you are known to the rest of the world and that can be enough to make your little fascist nation stable.

I actually picked this as one of my first two (free) choices in my latest game just to calculate how many tourism points I got for free. My primary goal was a diplo-victory and as a backup a science-victory so I haven't done much regarding tourism. I lost track of the points after 12, but I got some more GWAMs, enough to influence other weak nations and to and besides culture give me some protection.

But all-in-all it is

 

[Resipsa]

I usually take it in my CV/DOM games (where the goal is to influence or completely kill the the Civ) but it is a weak tenent it should be modified to 100 Tourism or 1 turn of additional tourism whichever is greater that way it stays marginally beneficial.

 

[PaleJackal]

What does this come out to, like an average of 10 tourism per turn about? Figuring ~10 GWAM's generated from turn 200 to 300, and that may even be on the high end. I doubt it will be much higher than that, if at all.

Well, I could maybe get 12, since I haven't produced any GWAM through Guilds yet, and I have Glory of God. I've also got like 2-4 tourism currently, though hopefully I can conquer a good capital soon.

Though it is a good point that say, conquering a capital would probably give me at least 10 tourism per turn, and that if you can produce 1000 tourism per turn on standard speed, ~1000 tourism isn't that significant.

 

[Matthew.]

Well, a 8000 strength musical tour (GM generated at 800 tourism per turn) is only giving 1600 tourism to all Civs. That is the equivalent of 16 GWAM's generated with Futurism. Something in the 200-300 range seems like it would be decent.

 

[pthmix]

Does anyone know wether the 100 tourism is influenced by percentage-modifiers?

It should at least scale with game speed. Frankly I get the impression that Firaxis made Futurism, "Faith from expanded Great Persons" and "Gold when you convert a city to your religion" for quick speed. All these are decent on quick where their respective values are high comparatively. For all other speed settings they are just bad.

 

[Gort]

I don't know what game/size/speed you get over 1000 tourism per turn

Standard/Standard/Continents/Emperor, usually.

 

[zukenft]

yeah, futurism should be 100% of your tourism. I guess the coders messed up on that one.
right now your first autocracy tenets should be unit maintenance and purchase discounts. yes, it also works on civilian units! added with commerce discount and big ben, a worker now costs 90 gold.

 

[Zenstrive]

1000 tourism per turn?
HOW?

 

[tomtom5858]

1000 tourism per turn?
HOW?

Grabbing tourism generating wonders, conquering those you can't build, Hotels and Airports, theming bonuses, National Visitor's Centre, any resolution that gives culture to tiles, Archaeology, etc. It all adds up really quickly.

 

[DemonMaster]

Grabbing tourism generating wonders, conquering those you can't build, Hotels and Airports, theming bonuses, National Visitor's Centre, any resolution that gives culture to tiles, Archaeology, etc. It all adds up really quickly.

If you are so devoted to build cultural and tourism buildings and go for those techs that allow you to do so then you are clearly going for a cultural victory and if you are not then you are building a lot of unnecessary buildings and probably also some techs that aren't that necessary (at least not a priority). My thought of this tenet was that it is not that usable for those that go for a cultural victory but can help for those that don't to help them protect their chosen ideology.

In my latest game, my plan was to win a diplo-win with a backup plan of a science-win. I didn't got any "tourism" wonders and since I went for a puppet-kingdom, my real cities (I had 3, at the end game I activated a fourth) where to busy building other buildings and/or units. My puppets (8 of them) sometimes built them. I first went for some wartechs (I had some bad neighbours), but then I headed straight to Globalization and won thanks to Globalization, some CS and a liberated civ. I had a tourism income of little over 200.

 

[Matthew.]

Yeah, if you are getting 1,000 tourism per turn you are going all out on a culture game. Which is why I mentioned in my first post that perhaps it is not for a culture win, but to keep your own tourism comparable when you are not going all-out with tourism wonders/buildings. Whether Futurism is good enough for that purpose, I don't know.

@zukenft: That would be the easiest solution, both in coding and tool-tip wording. Doesn't seem like it would be too overpowered. Even if you were to try and game the system and generate 5 or 6 GWAM's instantly right after Internet, that is still about the strength of only one musical tour--less tourism on a single target, but more to all targets on the map.

 

[fyar]

Grabbing tourism generating wonders, conquering those you can't build, Hotels and Airports, theming bonuses, National Visitor's Centre, any resolution that gives culture to tiles, Archaeology, etc. It all adds up really quickly.

You forgot the most important factor: the Internet.

I really like the suggestion of 1 turn's worth of tourism for Futurism. My only concern is that it effectively makes musicians 10% stronger against the targeted civ, and a whopping 50% stronger against everyone else. That seems too powerful for a tier 1 policy. It seems like a good idea for a tier 2 policy (or even tier 3 if it was buffed a little more), but Autocracy isn't lacking in very good tier 2 policies already. There are already too many good tier 2 policies in fact, and I can never get to them all because I have to take so many crappy tier 1 policies. Maybe as a tier 1 policy it should be just a half turn's worth of tourism?

 

[Matthew.]

Well, a 8000 strength musical tour (GM generated at 800 tourism per turn) is only giving 1600 tourism to all Civs. That is the equivalent of 16 GWAM's generated with Futurism. Something in the 200-300 range seems like it would be decent.

Tenet: Autocracy - Futurism now +250 Tourism for each Great Writer/Artist/Musician created (instead of +100).

Wow... called that without realizing it.