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Siam Strategy

Discussion in 'Strategy Section' started by crdvis16, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Wow, definitely did not know that. Gifting for 16ish influence starts to sound more enticing.
     
  2. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    You could definitely be right. I thought the unit one also affected the option where you pay 200 gold to improve a tile for them, but my memory could be hazy.
     
  3. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Yes, this doubles the influence it would normally get, I think.
     
  4. neo_arcadia

    neo_arcadia Warlord

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    Woah. Double? Seriously? OMG I need to move this quest up in priority! I thought it was only like, 10 or 20ish percent increase. Thanks for this new and super important information! Holy cow I have been playing diplomacy wrong this all time lol.
     
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Not sure, actually. It would be nice if someone could confirm. This quest happens when the city state is at war. Sometimes CS is at war because it is allied to a major who is at war. Then CS changes its ally and the quest is over.
     
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I thought it was 1.5 time influence.
     
  7. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Post game update- I won on turn 337 (I think? Hard to remember now).

    My win was pretty much inevitable once I unlocked telecommunications and hadn't been punished militarily for my tech path. I like this aspect of the diplomacy victory- you want to beeline atomic theory -> telecommunications in order to get united nations and world ideology passed and begin the global hegemony countdown but doing so often pisses off the world and means you delay a bunch of key military techs. This creates a fun suspense.

    In my case, my old enemies Japan/Ottomans on my continent both dow'd along with their friend the Inca on the other continent. They invaded me as well as attacked my CS allies that were near them with sizable forces exactly as they should. However, I had good defensive positions sandwiched between my CS allies so being overrun was not that much of a concern. I spent the 20 or so turns I had to wait for world ideology and global hegemony updating my military to turn back the invasions and counter invade for fun. I also had 24(!) Uranium to play with (by far the most I've ever had, I play standard settings continents++ so this is not due to some strategic abundance setting) so I was building/buying atomic bombs and later nuclear missiles to launch off in celebration. One cool thing I learned that I hadn't really seen happen before- guided missiles are excellent ways to assassinate nukes and the AI is really good at doing so. I had 3 atomic bombs get sniped before they could launch and was really impressed that the AI knew to do this.

    I ended up winning with 60+ votes when I only needed 44, so my biggest concern coming in of Siam not having innate ways to generate votes like Germany/Austria was not a big deal. I was allied to all but 2 CSs that were still in the game (I think only 2 got conquered over on the other continent), had some votes from world religion and spreading to my vassal Russia, had probably 5 or so votes from landmarks/holy sites via my religion, a bunch from embassies, and a few more from Westminster.

    I think my biggest key to victory was my gold generation. I was routinely dumping 5K+ on diplomats, military upgrades, and infrastructure only to have a big surplus again a few turns later. Any CS that got taken from me was immediately swarmed with diplomats. Progress and Industry were a big reason for that $.

    One thing that surprised me was that it seemed as if the yields from CSs stopped scaling with era at some point. I believe my CS yields initially got bumped up from ancient to classical but at some point I think they stopped increasing. Perhaps that is how it is supposed to work. The effect is that Siam's UA wanes in strength over time. Early/mid game the yields from CSs can easily be 10-50% of your total but later on it will be more like 10% max it seemed.
     
  8. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    They do scale, but more slowly than the rest.

    Gazebo has stated that it's intentional, so that it's their votes that matter later on.
     
  9. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I'm revisiting Siam and this time going Tradition. I'm actually having trouble deciding how I want to proceed with them in the early game as there are a lot of conflicting priorities and it's somewhat dependent on what CSs you are able to meet early on. I've played a handful of starts so far trying to decide how I should go. My thoughts:

    1) Your initial build order can be REALLY dependent on how quickly you find CSs and what type those CSs are. Finding an early religious CS means you get your pantheon for free without bothering with a shrine. Early cultural CS means you get your first policy fairly fast without bothering with a monument. However, you typically don't find those initial CSs early enough to be able to plan your build order around it. I've gone for Stonehenge first and then found a religious CS and it feels wasteful. I've built a monument early and then found 2 early culture CSs at which point I wish I had committed those early hammers to something else. I've started building a settler only to find maritime civs for their food and decided to delay the settler in order to not miss out on that free food. There are games where my initial location is full of CSs and I find 8 of them within the first 100 turns and then other games where my continent has 4 total and I can't find more until I can embark.

    2) I'm fairly sure that immediately building a 2nd pathfinder is the right move. You more quickly find all nearby CSs and those 10 free turns of friendly status are most impactful the earlier they occur. You can also more quickly explore off continent with 2 pathfinders once you unlock embarkation. The sooner you find CSs the sooner you start getting quests from them, too. If you can find culture and religious CSs fast then you aren't punished for delaying shrine/monument.

    3) I really want Roman Forum as Siam but it's actually fairly difficult to secure unless you absolutely beeline for it. Beelining for it is somewhat at odds with getting to Fishing early (to embark my 2 pathfinders) and diverting the two techs to Fishing is enough to miss out on Roman Forum it seems.

    4) I'd like to be able to use Goddess of Renewal (faith and culture from 2x jungle or forest tiles) as it plays into later having the Wat and getting additional yields from forest/jungle. It's fairly hard to found with Renewal, though, unless I get somewhat lucky with religious CSs either being nearby or having quests I can reasonably complete. This is a minor gripe I suppose.

    5) I haven't tried purposely building warriors in order to gift them to CSs yet. It seems like a typical early game influence level for donating a unit is ~12. That might be quite worthwhile for a religious CS as early faith has quite an inflated value. I'm not sure yet if it's worthwhile to gift them in order to extend culture, food, or science/unit yields from CSs. I can't imagine it would be worthwhile for happiness yields from mercantile CSs.

    6) I'd like to get to writing as my next priority after Roman Forum and Fishing in order to continually build diplomats every time I have available paper for the rest of the game.
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    What map script? On a standard size continents this seems pretty wasteful. On Pangea or Oval its probably the best, but really Siam is a bit OP on those map scripts.

    I agree tradition is the way to go because it benefits a lot from early food CS. I'd just build the monument. Sure it isn't that great if you meet culture CS, but at that point you have a rich man's problem. More culture always better.
    I do this occasionally, especially if it can help you to fulfill a quest (such as a luxury or ending a civil war). You could try building a warrior instead of a pathfinder if the terrain is open, because you cannot gift pathfinders. He can probably meet those CS about as quickly, and get you an extra 12 turns of influence.
     
  11. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I'm on standard size continents++. The 2x pathfinder worked well in my current game- they finished mapping out my continent and met ~6 CS before I unlocked fishing. They then set out into the ocean in opposite directions, one of which quickly found the other continent and another 6 CSs. If I only had one pathfinder I probably wouldn't have found my initial 6CSs so quickly and before unlocking fishing. I also would have had a ~50% chance of not going the right direction to find the other continent, delaying finding the other CSs by maybe 20+ turns depending on how quickly I figured it out? Then again, occassionally the other continent is not accessible by connected coast tiles and my 2 pathfinders would be more wasteful in that instance.

    I do like your idea of building a warrior first, though. They cost less production and can be gifted for the influence and would still be able to do some scouting. I did build and gift ~4 warriors this game to stay friendly with a culture and maritime CS and extend the culture/food yields until I was able to get quests completed and start building diplomats. Maybe something like this would work:

    Warrior-shrine-monument-warrior

    If you find a religious CS early you can delay the shrine and if you find a culture CS you can delay the monument, in both instances in favor of more warriors for gifting/scouting. Send the warriors out in whatever direction until they hit a dead end and then gift them rather than have them try to double back.

    Overall, my current game is going well. I've nabbed Roman Forum and Summer Palace and got Hanging Garden as well just due to a well timed GE. I almost got Oracle but didn't need it, really. I'm closing in on Palace of Westminster and if I get it I think I'll be in solid shape. The only two problems I foresee are:

    1) Austria is in the game and so will be a headache to fight over CSs with

    2) I'm very small/tall at just 3 cities which means my unit cap is very low. Low unit cap + CS alliances means I'm a target and getting frequent DoWs (Indonesia, Austria, and Ottomans). My cities are very well placed for defense via terrain and nearby allied CSs so I'm in no danger of being overrun but the DoWs are wrecking havoc on my trade routes and ability to safely send out diplomats.
     
    CrazyG likes this.

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