Siam

[Gazebo]

Consider adding a culture comeback mechanic in that case too. Maybe an culture boost based on the culture of civs that are heavily influencing you via tourism. Especially to help the beaten-down AI that's influenced by everyone and 5 policies behind.

A big part of that is pre turn 100 culture snowball. Adding more time between policies prior to turn 150 should give various policy strategies room to breathe.

G

 

[Txurce]

A big part of that is pre turn 100 culture snowball. Adding more time between policies prior to turn 150 should give various policy strategies room to breathe.

G

I think this will help the player lagging behind the early runaway more often that it will deprive the player of a lucky start.

 

[Gazebo]

I think this will help the player lagging behind the early runaway more often that it will deprive the player of a lucky start.

Moving the religion goalpost back largely solved our pantheon issues by giving slower generators a chance to catch up. This will do the same.

G

 

[Txurce]

Moving the religion goalpost back largely solved our pantheon issues by giving slower generators a chance to catch up. This will do the same.

G

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, but I really think it's going to help balance the game.

 

[tu_79]

In many games I went back to complete other medieval or modern trees... As ideological tenets weren't that great. But it says something that one can have so many policies in the end.

 

[intelli]

No benefit from meeting friendly city states even though it says as much, intentional or bug?

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Hi. I think the recent changes to jungles/forests have been a nerf to Siam due to its UB. Perhaps its UB could grant 1 food on worked forests/jungles?

 

[tu_79]

Hi. I think the recent changes to jungles/forests have been a nerf to Siam due to its UB. Perhaps its UB could grant 1 food on worked forests/jungles?

Siam UB never was relevant. I had quite a few games with Siam and no jungles nearby. His power is in city states.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Does Siam even have a jungle/forest starting bias? I can't count the number of times I've started a game as Siam and ended up on plains, tundra, coast, etc. with literally not a single forest/jungle tile within 3 hexes of my capital. It makes their UB even less attractive when you don't have any tiles nearby to make use of it.

 

[pineappledan]

Siam UB never was relevant. I had quite a few games with Siam and no jungles nearby. His power is in city states.

The +1 to forest/jungle is the flashiest part of the Wat, but not the most important.

The building gives 6 (shrine/temple boosts) and an extra scientist specialist
Gives 5 (helps with crime) and -50% crime modifier (double the constabulary)
Is available a full era earlier than the base constabulary and is 30% cheaper

So the Wat basically solves crime and illiteracy for Siam precisely in the era where every other empire gets too bogged down in unhappiness to grow any more. I'm not aware of any other building in the game which has as massive an impact on happiness.

The on forests really is just icing, but it's noteworthy that it comes at the exact same tech level as the on jungle (university), and 1 tech earlier than the / on forest (workshop), so it synergizes with that forest/jungle spike on the upper medieval tech tree

EDIT: While checking this, I realized the wat is bugged right now. It doesn't give scientist specialist because the SpecialistType table entry for Wat has been overwritted in the most recent version. Posted the issue on GitHub

 

[pza]

So I recently got Siam as random civ and I must say, the Naseruan's Elephants were a huge disappointment. I thought they were stronger than knights, but instead they are just a little stronger (27 instead of 25) and have a little malus for nearby enemy units, but their slowness is really hard to bear, to the point I was even happy when i got a knight from a city state. Comparing them to other Knight UU's like the Spanish Conquistador (30 instead of 25, no city attack malus, and many other goodies) makes them look even weaker.

 

[chicorbeef]

So I recently got Siam as random civ and I must say, the Naseruan's Elephants were a huge disappointment. I thought they were stronger than knights, but instead they are just a little stronger (27 instead of 25) and have a little malus for nearby enemy units, but their slowness is really hard to bear, to the point I was even happy when i got a knight from a city state. Comparing them to other Knight UU's like the Spanish Conquistador (30 instead of 25, no city attack malus, and many other goodies) makes them look even weaker.

They do have +50% vs. Mounted, that's not bad.

 

[Stalker0]

They do have +50% vs. Mounted, that's not bad.

Yep. Which means at that point in time.....they do not have a counter. Other mounted don't beat them, and they are too strong for pikes.

So yes they are slow, but probably used....they are also unstoppable.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I too like them very much, one of the best UUs in the game.

 

[pza]

Yep. Which means at that point in time.....they do not have a counter. [...]....they are also unstoppable.

I wouldn't go as far, because they're just a little stronger than a knights+pike composition. I'm just saying i expected more, since they're elephants.

 

[ridjack]

I don't really think the Elephants need to be any stronger. Siam's ability can be insanely strong, and the Wat is very good. I always saw the Elephants as a defensive unit. And in that, they excel.

 

[Cozzolino]

Coming in after losing a game in Industrial Era as Siam.

Tradition into Statecraft seems to make the most sense, but I went with Artistry (which I kinda regret). Early game was all the expansion I needed, my start was almost completely unforested/unjungled and reading this thread it seems the norm. Overall I think Siam goes for science/diplo victory, with one being the victory condition and the other supporting the effort. Siam feels like a very defensive civ, one that will win a game by keeping a solid lead from the very start and improving over it, Siam is not very expansionist having little to no incentive to do so, and everything about its set pretty much forces enemies to attack via warmongering in order to stop Siam. UU debuffs enemy units, UB debuffs spies and thank you very much for the science, UA needs a damn lot of work to reap any benefit whatsover and I failed to do so. I rushed Stonehenge, 2 settlers and Pyramids and I think it is the ideal start. Mandirs were an absolute killer but if you're going Tradition you might aswell get it for free via wonder in your capital and pick another belief.

UA was sooo good in the very early game, it gave me a much needed lead to rush some land. But that changed quickly and got a lot worse later in the game where it was just doing very little with all the interest and effort other civ were investing in CS. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that the hardest part about dealing with CS is not keeping them alive, it is keeping them allies and nothing in Siam kit helps with that.

Overall I think Siam and would like to see some tweaks to the UA, I'm thinking about a production bonus to Diplo units or an influence bonus on diplomatic missions.

 

[Mad Madigan]

I don't think Siam really needs that much balance change, save that it needs its starting bias changed to "Forest/Jungle" instead of "Avoid Forest/Jungle" like it currently is. So far I have been manually fixing this after each new patch so that the Civ can actually make use of the bonus on Forests/Jungles from the Wat.

Tradition > Statecraft > Rationalism would seem to be their obvious policy choice, but I sometimes start with Progress if I think I'm going to play a little bit wider depending on my starting location and neighbors.

 

[pineappledan]

I see no reason to change anything except the start bias on Siam.

Siam's kit is a 'win-more' mechanic. Giving them a 'win-easier' bonus as well is just bad design.

 

[Cozzolino]

Well, that was my first game and I'm but an average player.
By renaissance my small but steady lead peaked and decayied. My few cities were powerhouses and I had no interest in expanding. Then I just couldn't keep up anymore and now I understand that a proper jungle/forest start would have paid off better but rougher. In retrospection, I believe changing the starting bias would put Siam in the right spot, until then I think the UA could be at some point and context a liability.