Side discussion for the New Scoring System

Originally posted by Ribannah
The Tournament has the drawback that I would always have to play emperor/deity.
Only if you chose the leader division to compete in. You can of course choose any division to compete in, each division playing at 2 difficulty levels.


Regarding Jason, I suppose the 'best' times will improve as the games move on and there is a big enough sample size.

Aeson, I presume that this is the ultimate aim - to build a database of scores and times for different map conditions and difficulties so as to get the best numbers for the forumulas?
 
Extremely good comment from Ronald : you're bang on mate !

My money is on a 20K cultural winning gold medal this month, a win from someone who is very much used to winning golds...
 
I have refrained for comments on the Jason formula as I needed time to see how it works. I got an early cultural victory in GOTM 16 (not the best one but close enough). My score was about 80% of ‘max score’ (meaning 8000+ points). GOTM 17 was an early domination victory and my score was also about 80% of ‘max score’. In this respect I conclude that the formula is appropriate for my skill level as my scores for two totally different games were similar (as they were supposed to be). I imagine that most people feel they are not much affected by it.
I have noticed that the in-game score still has an important weight in the final score. Yes, an early victory can outscore a fully milked game but this is probably because the early victor also applied early milking techniques. In consequence the early steps of the long time milkers still greatly influence their final score. Early langrab, early times high lux rate, small cities and ICS will still play a great role in the end even if the milker got an early SS victory and not a fully milked one.
Is this good? Did Aeson intended to keep this strong influence of play style in the score?
I do not know. I believe I can improve my Jason score with about 10 percentage points if I try to cram more cities on the same land surface but it would take more time than I am willing to assign to each game.
I can see that top players and I mean top 10 or top 20 are not fully satisfied with the ‘best date’ provided by Aeson and indeed the most accurate best date would be found only if all those top players play the game under all victory conditions and compare individual best dates. Even then a random event (or lack thereof) can improve (worsen) one’s score with 10 or 20 turns earlier (later) than the ‘most accurate best date’.
So my question to you all is: Should Aeson spend all his free time to correct the best date with 10 turns or just leave it as it is and review it from time to time?
 
Originally posted by Yndy
So my question to you all is: Should Aeson spend all his free time to correct the best date with 10 turns or just leave it as it is and review it from time to time?
I think most (if not all) would agree that a periodic adjustment is better. :)

But who you are asking? Even Ribannah has said he doesn't expect anything to be adjusted straight away... :crazyeye:
 
Originally posted by Ronald
So I would expect a lot of 20k cultural victories to dominate the high scoring games (at least up to emperor):
You can set aside one central city to acquire culture, lots of wars give you a few great leaders to rush some wonders in your super city. You can get in a domination position almost as fast as if you were going for domination, but then you can milk the game untill the 20 k victory is achieved to increase your base score dramatically.

That was exactly what I tried to do in GOTM17, but failed.:( Since then, I have replayed both GOTM17 and GOTM16 as an OCC and got the 20K culture without any problem. Therefore, it's possible to rush all those Wonders in one city without using any great leader. I will give this method another try in my the next game. With the Jason score system, I agree with you that the highest score would always be the one with a full milk up to around 1700 AD to 18850 AD with the 20K Culture victory.
 
Originally posted by Skyfish
My money is on a 20K cultural winning gold medal this month, a win from someone who is very much used to winning golds...

I thought so too, but I have a feeling that Gen. Maximus's Domination came very close to SirPleb's 20K Culture. If Gen. Maxiums won the gold, then the Jason score is almost perfect. However, if SirPleb won the Gold, then nothing can beat the 20K (moo) victory.;)
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger


That was exactly what I tried to do in GOTM17, but failed.:( Since then, I have replayed both GOTM17 and GOTM16 as an OCC and got the 20K culture without any problem. Therefore, it's possible to rush all those Wonders in one city without using any great leader. I will give this method another try in my the next game. With the Jason score system, I agree with you that the highest score would always be the one with a full milk up to around 1700 AD to 18850 AD with the 20K Culture victory.

I have absolutely no doubt that you were able to get an OCC 20k victory in both games. (OCC's are even possible at deity level if your name is Aeson ;) /have a look at season 3 game 5).
When you look at your score according to Jason, your OCC score will be only a fraction compared to a 20 k victory around the same date with a territory close to domination.
 
Originally posted by Ronald
When you look at your score according to Jason, your OCC score will be only a fraction compared to a 20 k victory around the same date with a territory close to domination.

The key to exploit the Jason score system is that we need to play two games in one. We just have to treat our second city as an OCC game in itself while the rest of our empire will be striving for the fast domination. The OC will provide the 20K cultural victory, while the rest of the empire will provide territory, population and technology to help build that OC.
 
Originally posted by Moonsinger


The key to exploit the Jason score system is that we need to play two games in one. We just have to treat our second city as an OCC game in itself while the rest of our empire will be striving for the fast domination. The OC will provide the 20K cultural victory, while the rest of the empire will provide territory, population and technology to help build that OC.

That's exactly what I think as well. Additionally, the strive for domination helps the OC, because it will eventually result in some GL to be used to rush more wonders in the OC than you could build without them.
 
Look at us, the score has not even be applied nor the game finished that we have already been able to figure out the way to max it out... :nono:
 
Originally posted by Ronald
That's exactly what I think as well. Additionally, the strive for domination helps the OC, because it will eventually result in some GL to be used to rush more wonders in the OC than you could build without them.

Hehe, that sounds like a solid plan.:) The GOTM18 should be a good testing ground for this technique.


Originally posted by Skyfish
Look at us, the score has not even be applied nor the game finished that we have already been able to figure out the way to max it out... :nono:

The sooner we figure out a way to exploit it, the sooner Aeson will fix it. Therefore, it's win-win situation for everyone.;)
 
I think that Aeson's note about the top six GOTM17 results submitted to that date being spread across six victory conditions strongly suggests the opposite to the recent guesses in this thread. To me it suggests that all victory types will be viable options for a top score. Even if my 20K culture goes gold in GOTM17 I'll still think this. We won't really know until a few months' results are in of course. I predict that we'll see different victories taking the gold in different months.
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
I think that Aeson's note about the top six GOTM17 results submitted to that date being spread across six victory conditions strongly suggests the opposite to the recent guesses in this thread. To me it suggests that all victory types will be viable options for a top score. Even if my 20K culture goes gold in GOTM17 I'll still think this. We won't really know until a few months' results are in of course. I predict that we'll see different victories taking the gold in different months.

Yes, but the Cultural 20k is always the one with the latest 'best' day. Who on earth would require more time to finish a game?;) Could it be those dairy farmers?;)
 
Cultural 20k is the one with the fewest examples to derive best dates from. Mainly all I have for reference is one game I played to try to max it out, Adel's GOTM16, SirPleb's game (it's the only GOTM17 one I've had time to look at indepth so far), and the various OCC games I've seen/played. Given how differently an OCC plays out from a less restricted game, I wouldn't be suprised if the best date for 20k is a bit off.

20k isn't going to be a sure thing, though it's probably the condition where the necessary conditions become apparent the earliest on most maps. The date is expecting 2 Leaders in the BC's. You might need an early 3rd as well if your city has to wait to pump out at least that first Settler for a non-OCC game. Starting terrain is also huge.

I normally build the Oracle, Pyramids (if a leader or low difficulty), Great Library, Collosus (if on coast), and Hanging Gardens (if not on coast, and/or low difficulty). The second Leader is Sistene if I haven't built it by then. That, along with Temples, Libraries, Cathedrals...ect and the later Wonders (get them all basically) will get you to around a 1700AD finish date. It's not as easy as it sounds.

Being 'one city behind' will take it's toll on scoring (population/territory) as well, especially as it will be your best city throughout the whole game. Most maps I would expect 20k to be rather balanced. An early Settler from a hut + lots of luck with Leaders would be the problem, but that will mess with any condition.
 
Originally posted by Aeson
It's not as easy as it sounds.

Yes, it's a tough cookie to break.:( I have tried and failed in the previous game, but there will be another game. I will try my best this time to get you some more data to work with (assuming that there are good location for the second city near the palace).
 
I'm sorry, but once more I cannot agree. Do the calculation again with even a slightly later 'best date' and you'll see for yourself.

This is something I didn't explain very well (or at all), so I'll take another shot at it. Now that submissions are closed, I can give a better explaination anyways as some of this would be spoiler info otherwise. Before getting into any of this, I want to make sure it's understood I'm not demeaning anyone's play this month. I think both your's and Moonsinger's games are both very well played. I'll be using these two games as reference throughout the post.

Moving the best date back independantly of any other changes does modify the scoring ratio between early and late games, even if they are played roughly at the same level. The 'fix' for it is more involved than that though.

I played through to about 1000AD last night, to get a grasp on how the map would affect the cultural 100k playstyle, and I think 1600AD is getting pretty close to the best date. I think it could be reduced a bit, but not too much more. I went with a more hybrid approach, sacrificing some speed for score and vice versa. My best estimate on when I'd finish is around 1700AD, and close to 3200 base score at that point, about 4250 with the ingame bonus applied.

I had knowlege of the map of course, but then again I'm not the best at milking or going for early culture. I also didn't spend much time planning or doing micromanagement. I'd think both my score and date could be improved upon in the same game. I'll use it as a third reference to further show how the balance is affected by various changes. I wouldn't be able to hit that date and score without prior map knowlege most likely, so it's definitely just a theoretical game.

Initially the games score: (1405AD, 9386)

Moonsinger 7162
Ribannah 7044 (98.35%)
Theoretical 7993 (111.6%)

If we use 1600AD as the best date, the ratios come out as: (1600AD, 9386)

Moonsinger 7508
Ribannah 7943 (105.79%)
Theoretical 8771 (117.82%)

In a cultural 100k game, the influences on date are available landmass, difficulty level, and civilization traits. Available landmass being the most important factor. In GOTM17, the initial landmass was extremely small for the map size, and later expansion was somewhat difficult while maintaining a good culture rate.

Because the modifiers were set based on the map size, rather than the landmass, it caused a problem. Not just for Cutural 100k, but for Conquest/Domination ratio as well. In GOTM18 and the future, the best dates will be set based on the actual amount of land, instead of the size of the box that contains it.

Base score is also affected mainly by available landmass, in much the same way that the 100k best date is. In GOTM17 initial expansion is limited, and getting to the domination limit takes longer than expected, so population and territory score are also limited compared to the max score prediction. The max score should be set lower than it is. My best guess as to where it should be is ~8000 instead of 9386. 8000 is a bit low, but probably by close to the same amount as 1600AD is a bit high. Basically I could hit either of those if I went straight score or straight culture, and I'm not the best at either playstyle.

If we set the max score but not the best date: (1405AD, 8000)

Moonsinger 8049
Ribannah 7346 (91.23%)
Theoretical 8584 (106.65%)

In regard to the balance between your's and Moonsinger's games, both are affected. It's roughly equal. To illustrate, change the best date for Cultural 100k to ~1600AD and set the max score to ~8000.

After the games score: (1600AD, 8000)

Moonsinger 8395
Ribannah 8245 (98.21%)
Theoretical 9361 (111.8%)

Which is very close to the same ratio as before any of the changes are made.

I agree that the Cultural 100k games are going to score lower in general than they should, but it isn't terribly much. I'd guess 100k games max out on this map at 9k with the settings as is. That's assuming good luck for one of the best players, who makes the proper guesses. In short... a 'best' possible game. In relation to the other victory conditions, Cultural 100k is probably on par with 20k (unless someone gets really lucky with leaders while fighting the Egyptians) and close to Domination.

The other victory types aren't as affected by dates, but they still are diminished due to the max score being too high. In relation to past games, +1k (a bit more or less depending on the victory condition) to the score is probably about right to balance things. Luckily the global rankings do top score normalization, and so this month's game is balanced with other months in that regard.
 
That is an excellent analysis, Aeson!

My finishing date could have been several turns earlier if I had been able to play the 1.21 PTW patch, as there were no less than 5 scientific civs. But that's probably about it, unless the idea to build the Pyramids early was way off (but I don't think so).

My Jason score would have been higher if I had conquered Egypt, but speed would have suffered. I think that essentially summarizes the choice that had to be made. It's hard to win on two fronts.
 
Having to play a little bit of GOTM18, I just want to say that the Jason Scoring System is very hard to exploit. Aeson has done a very good job with it.::goodjob: Sure, the 20K culture victory seems like it's going to yield the best score for milkers, but it's not. In order to get 20K, we must go to war all the time and hope for great leader to help rush Wonders, plus territory means score. However, if we are at war constantly, our tech pace will be very slow. No new tech = no new Great Wonder = more delay in the 20K cultural goal. Basically, we either shoot for the fast Conquest or Domination or the 20K but it will be very tough to do both. Therefore, I think the Jason Scoring system is very well balance at the moment (except for the last game because the best score in the 100K Culture has no chance against the best score in Conquest or Domination; therefore, one victory condition may be best in one type of map but not the other).
 
I did the culture 20k in 17, and it was the most difficult game I ever played, very tense as well. The 100k is quite a bit easier and is very ripe for milking.

The problem as I see it, I passed by diplomatic (naturally I had to build the UN.) and it appears I would have done better to ignore cultural 20k and just go with diplo a couple hundred years earlier.

I'm going to look at a few games here just downloaded them, but its seems odd to me.
 
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