InternalShadow
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 39
Is there a way to create lv6 units, so they can be turned into shades right away? The closeist I've came is 22xp. I am not sure how I feel about exploiting the game, but I am a bit curious.
Sider Shades
- Thread starter InternalShadow
- Start date
You mean without some sort of world builder trick, liek putting every Altar of the Luonnotar in one city?
Lets see what we can think of:
+2 Apprenticeship
+2 Theocracy
+2 Conquest
+2 Command post
+14 Altar of the Luonnotar (Final)
+2 Form of the titan
That's 24, but I'm sure I've missed some.
(Also, if you have a charismatic leader you'd only need 20 XP but that requires unrestricted leaders)
Lets see what we can think of:
+2 Apprenticeship
+2 Theocracy
+2 Conquest
+2 Command post
+14 Altar of the Luonnotar (Final)
+2 Form of the titan
That's 24, but I'm sure I've missed some.
(Also, if you have a charismatic leader you'd only need 20 XP but that requires unrestricted leaders)
sylvanllewelyn
Perma-newb
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2006
- Messages
- 2,024
Um I thought you win the game after building the final Altar of the Luonnotar, but even if you don't, +14 XP really means an automatic win anyway, doesn't it?
If you really want shades just go farming adapts. I don't even like shades, I feel they are a waste of precious level 6 units.
If you really want shades just go farming adapts. I don't even like shades, I feel they are a waste of precious level 6 units.
Blackmantle
King
Best way to get sidar shades in my experience (and i have some with Sidar beeing my favorite and most-played civ.):
Run most / all xp-granting-civics. (conquest, theocracy for sure if you can, apprenticeship depending on the situation.)
Beeline military strategy at the start (starting with Education makes sense most of the time) fetch the Form of the Titan (if you can but its easier with Sidar for a number of reasons) and then build a command post (with the free commander) in the city you want to build good units / shade-wannabes in.
Go KotE afterwards for enchanted blade + courage + blur (or even before bronze working if you see at mining that there is no chance to aquire a source of copper.)
That alone will net you an early military at least equal to the most warmonger-oriented civs in the game (like hippus-horsemen or clan swarm.) and nearly on par with most Tier 3 units. With that you can get some nice combat troops as well as some shades and then go on campaign to net you some nice shades / troops.
Then get some other nice techs (like worker-techs or religions + other goddies) you want.
Afterwards beeline / tower to warhorses and build the Ride of the Nine Kings + Hippodrome to get 20/22 XP horses which will turn into shades after one or at most 2 battles (especially with Valor.).
Shade Rathus Dremora (not such a big problem since you get to keep the blade which is neat for other units as well) and build the Shrine of the Champion to have those mounted units start with 5 promotions out of the box (like combat 5 or drill 4+ blitz) which will also make them really powerful for fighting in addition to shading.
Also (very important! to mitigate the "problem" sylvanllewelyn has pointed out):
produce units especially for shading and keep a number of high-level / high-tier units as combat specialists / elite core of your military.
Because of that its usually much more useful to spam Tier 1 and 2 Units (whichever you can build in one turn per given city) for shading. Since a) they get more XP from each battle (even with comparable odds due to weapons and buffs) and b) it doesn't matter for the value of the shade which unit your shade originated from.
Also you might lose one or 2 on the way but it makes no real difference if you shade one of 3 low-tier units built in one turn as opposed to one higher-tier unit built in 3 turns (with the possibility to get up to 3 Shades from the former.)
Warriors and Scouts are very valuable builds as Sidar.
That may sound like its a bit of problem to get good buildings up. But Shades simply replace that part more or less (at least during good chunks of the game).
Why bother with building a non-% building (like Obelisks, Markets, Alchemist Labs or the like) when 2 or 3 troops net you more yield for less hammers built in less time?
(plus you get to the limit fast enough where further units drain to much support and hence you are "forced" to build buildings. Which is a much higher limit than other civs thanks to shades.)
Also i have to say spamming Adepts / Savants is not such a good idea for shading (since it still lasts a long time to get them to Level 6) so much as its rather good to spam mages for combat as sidar in my experience since your adepts may very well start with 10+ XP on conscription. Which means instant-upgrade to mage without waiting.
That said adepts get nice xp from fights even with good odds so don't hesitate to attack the odd orc-spearman or Goblin running into reach of your adept to get an adept to 26 xp very quickly. (not so hard to get good odds with the many "free" promotions your adepts start with. 3 beeing the minimum.)
Still even with above way to tech its still worthy to get any source of xp you can (so Aneron's Bounty, Circle of Gaelan, Deis Dei, Nox-Nocturnis and the likes are all very interesting for Sidar if you can get your hold on them.) and running priests as specialists is worthwile even without an added bonus which Sidar offer for other greath people (after perhaps one sage for an Academy) since any other great person can be gained from shades anyways and the altar offers a lot more than just free xp.
Valor is also very much recommended if you can get hold of that spell (a shaded chalid is a nice source for example. Can still cast all his spells save the pillar and stays if you switch religions.).
Instant-Shades are only possible if you disable altar-victory so you can reap the benefits of the final altar.
Then 26 xp / instant-shades out of the box are possible (otherwise 24 xp is the limit as far as i know.).
But near-shades level 5 / 17 XP+ are much more easiely attainable and offer more bang for their buck in terms of a real game in comparison.
Also it may make sense during an early military campaign to finish the war first and then shade your troops afterwards (always consider keeping / upgrading you strongest / most experienced troops instead of shading.)
Also its very worthwhile to set up battles on your own (most reliable way for that beeing running slave-trade and upgrading slaves to lunatics via an assylum + disbanding them.) that way you can get a fight whenever you need one at the place where you do. (And you should leave some fog for barbs to spawn from so fugbusting is rather a no-go for Sidar.)
Also you should try to get the Greath Library. 5 beakers per Sage is rather impressive (2 get included for free from said wonder) + it enhances all greath Sages afterwards.
Run most / all xp-granting-civics. (conquest, theocracy for sure if you can, apprenticeship depending on the situation.)
Beeline military strategy at the start (starting with Education makes sense most of the time) fetch the Form of the Titan (if you can but its easier with Sidar for a number of reasons) and then build a command post (with the free commander) in the city you want to build good units / shade-wannabes in.
Go KotE afterwards for enchanted blade + courage + blur (or even before bronze working if you see at mining that there is no chance to aquire a source of copper.)
That alone will net you an early military at least equal to the most warmonger-oriented civs in the game (like hippus-horsemen or clan swarm.) and nearly on par with most Tier 3 units. With that you can get some nice combat troops as well as some shades and then go on campaign to net you some nice shades / troops.
Then get some other nice techs (like worker-techs or religions + other goddies) you want.
Afterwards beeline / tower to warhorses and build the Ride of the Nine Kings + Hippodrome to get 20/22 XP horses which will turn into shades after one or at most 2 battles (especially with Valor.).
Shade Rathus Dremora (not such a big problem since you get to keep the blade which is neat for other units as well) and build the Shrine of the Champion to have those mounted units start with 5 promotions out of the box (like combat 5 or drill 4+ blitz) which will also make them really powerful for fighting in addition to shading.
Also (very important! to mitigate the "problem" sylvanllewelyn has pointed out):
produce units especially for shading and keep a number of high-level / high-tier units as combat specialists / elite core of your military.
Because of that its usually much more useful to spam Tier 1 and 2 Units (whichever you can build in one turn per given city) for shading. Since a) they get more XP from each battle (even with comparable odds due to weapons and buffs) and b) it doesn't matter for the value of the shade which unit your shade originated from.
Also you might lose one or 2 on the way but it makes no real difference if you shade one of 3 low-tier units built in one turn as opposed to one higher-tier unit built in 3 turns (with the possibility to get up to 3 Shades from the former.)
Warriors and Scouts are very valuable builds as Sidar.
That may sound like its a bit of problem to get good buildings up. But Shades simply replace that part more or less (at least during good chunks of the game).
Why bother with building a non-% building (like Obelisks, Markets, Alchemist Labs or the like) when 2 or 3 troops net you more yield for less hammers built in less time?
(plus you get to the limit fast enough where further units drain to much support and hence you are "forced" to build buildings. Which is a much higher limit than other civs thanks to shades.)
Also i have to say spamming Adepts / Savants is not such a good idea for shading (since it still lasts a long time to get them to Level 6) so much as its rather good to spam mages for combat as sidar in my experience since your adepts may very well start with 10+ XP on conscription. Which means instant-upgrade to mage without waiting.
That said adepts get nice xp from fights even with good odds so don't hesitate to attack the odd orc-spearman or Goblin running into reach of your adept to get an adept to 26 xp very quickly. (not so hard to get good odds with the many "free" promotions your adepts start with. 3 beeing the minimum.)
Still even with above way to tech its still worthy to get any source of xp you can (so Aneron's Bounty, Circle of Gaelan, Deis Dei, Nox-Nocturnis and the likes are all very interesting for Sidar if you can get your hold on them.) and running priests as specialists is worthwile even without an added bonus which Sidar offer for other greath people (after perhaps one sage for an Academy) since any other great person can be gained from shades anyways and the altar offers a lot more than just free xp.
Valor is also very much recommended if you can get hold of that spell (a shaded chalid is a nice source for example. Can still cast all his spells save the pillar and stays if you switch religions.).
Instant-Shades are only possible if you disable altar-victory so you can reap the benefits of the final altar.
Then 26 xp / instant-shades out of the box are possible (otherwise 24 xp is the limit as far as i know.).
But near-shades level 5 / 17 XP+ are much more easiely attainable and offer more bang for their buck in terms of a real game in comparison.
Also it may make sense during an early military campaign to finish the war first and then shade your troops afterwards (always consider keeping / upgrading you strongest / most experienced troops instead of shading.)
Also its very worthwhile to set up battles on your own (most reliable way for that beeing running slave-trade and upgrading slaves to lunatics via an assylum + disbanding them.) that way you can get a fight whenever you need one at the place where you do. (And you should leave some fog for barbs to spawn from so fugbusting is rather a no-go for Sidar.)
Also you should try to get the Greath Library. 5 beakers per Sage is rather impressive (2 get included for free from said wonder) + it enhances all greath Sages afterwards.
Pyr0mancer
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2008
- Messages
- 542
+2 Dies Dei
That makes the full 26 xp needed to get instant shades, but honestly, you've already won if you've got all that.
InternalShadow
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
- Messages
- 39
Farming Adapts isn't really worth it, they take too long to reach the lv6 mark. Its interesting that you can shade most hero units, if you don't mind losing them. I have also noticed that buildings that give free promotions, ie Shrine of the Champion do not increase the units level.
It looks like the whole thing is possible with the Alter and Dies Dei. I was thinking more along the mounted units path, which I capped at 22. The Alter is pretty hard to get though, but I guess insta-shades shouldn't be easy to get.
It looks like the whole thing is possible with the Alter and Dies Dei. I was thinking more along the mounted units path, which I capped at 22. The Alter is pretty hard to get though, but I guess insta-shades shouldn't be easy to get.
very nice summary, blackmantle. Another comment on Rathus and the possibility of shading him: let him give away the nether blade right at the beginning and select the "nether blade promotion" every time he levels up. That way you should have seven nether blades for your army by the time rathus is ready to wane. Of course, if you want to take this exploit to another level, use the life3 spell and equip your entire army with nether blades.
Another thing on disciple-shading: I think its not that much of a problem to have your priests starting with "only" 17-20xp...just park them for some time and have them shade in say 20 turns. If you have a city capable of producing one priest per turn, you'll simply have a stack of around twenty priests standing around wating to join your cities and on
average one shade per turn...no big loss compared to insta-shading.
Another thing on disciple-shading: I think its not that much of a problem to have your priests starting with "only" 17-20xp...just park them for some time and have them shade in say 20 turns. If you have a city capable of producing one priest per turn, you'll simply have a stack of around twenty priests standing around wating to join your cities and on
average one shade per turn...no big loss compared to insta-shading.
Blackmantle
King
Might be possible, but that is a known bug (with promotions having gained the wrong prerequisites by some sort of typo). I don't list those since its known + clear that it will be fixed soon. As will be replicating the equipment with Life 3. Testing / using / reporting things is allright until it is known + will be adressed (if it needs adressing) afterwards its using a function that is explicitly non-intended.
But Sidar really don't need that. One of the strongest civs on normal and slower game speeds anyways.
Leveling priests with high starting xp is another solid one i missed to put in above post. (Also because most of the Tier 2 divine Spells are decent in their own right and Priests with 3 or 4 free Promotions handle themselves not so bad in a fight. Also on par with Tier 3 Units. Is much faster than using Adepts) Thanks for pointing that out.
But Sidar really don't need that. One of the strongest civs on normal and slower game speeds anyways.
Leveling priests with high starting xp is another solid one i missed to put in above post. (Also because most of the Tier 2 divine Spells are decent in their own right and Priests with 3 or 4 free Promotions handle themselves not so bad in a fight. Also on par with Tier 3 Units. Is much faster than using Adepts) Thanks for pointing that out.
I'd like to add two suggestions (the first one is especially noteworthy since it enabled me to win a few Deity OCC games, something I could not do before):
1. Declare war on your nearest neighbour (almost) immediately! The idea is to make them come to you. Your neighbour will periodically send stacks of warriors and scouts to attack your capital. Attack the stacks from within the city (if possible) and let the rest self destruct on a couple of your fortified units.
2. Another thing you can consider is to not take your opponents cities, but instead give them time to build defending units, so you can attack them again and gain more and more experience.
1. Declare war on your nearest neighbour (almost) immediately! The idea is to make them come to you. Your neighbour will periodically send stacks of warriors and scouts to attack your capital. Attack the stacks from within the city (if possible) and let the rest self destruct on a couple of your fortified units.
2. Another thing you can consider is to not take your opponents cities, but instead give them time to build defending units, so you can attack them again and gain more and more experience.
xienwolf
Deity
I don't normally write anything into the Guides, preferring to see what other people figure out, but this one is amusing enough.
And that spells G-A-M-E- -O-V-E-R
Winning the game as the Sidar: A Guide in 3 Steps
- Locate the Svartalfar
- Dominate Alazkan the Assassin
- Wane his Mirror every turn
And that spells G-A-M-E- -O-V-E-R
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
Surely there are more steps than that. You need to get an Archmage (or hero) with Mind III first.
Actually, the spell already requires the caster be a living unit. (For some reason it does this in Python instead of XML/SDK.) That rules out that "strategy."
(Wait...can his mirror get the dark_elven promotion back, the way other summons can? If so, this strategy combined with not spending all Alazkan's xp and using unrestricted leaders to play as a Summoning Trait Sidar leader could probably work.)
Actually, the spell already requires the caster be a living unit. (For some reason it does this in Python instead of XML/SDK.) That rules out that "strategy."
(Wait...can his mirror get the dark_elven promotion back, the way other summons can? If so, this strategy combined with not spending all Alazkan's xp and using unrestricted leaders to play as a Summoning Trait Sidar leader could probably work.)
xienwolf
Deity
Ah, figured there might be some random block in place for it already. Never used Dominate myself so far though 
+2 Apprenticeship
+2 Conquest
+2 Command post
+2 Form of the titan
(+2 Theocracy)
+2 Aeron's Bounty
10(12) XP Ghosts available quite early in the game. Levels easy and safe cause they target easy kills. Shade Rathus early (build Form of Titan first if you haven't) for extra promotions on your units and use his blade to make kills for your ghosts easier.
+2 Conquest
+2 Command post
+2 Form of the titan
(+2 Theocracy)
+2 Aeron's Bounty
10(12) XP Ghosts available quite early in the game. Levels easy and safe cause they target easy kills. Shade Rathus early (build Form of Titan first if you haven't) for extra promotions on your units and use his blade to make kills for your ghosts easier.
QES
Court Jester
![[to_xp]Gekko](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/74/74677.jpg?1475248346){kind=avatar}
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
lol, that was fixed in one of the first patches for 0.33 thankfully 
Blackmantle
King
If you bother to play unrestricted in the first pace charismatic or raiders (or both if thats possible. 
) seems way best...
Both dwarf Spiritual / Arcane. Big time!
With charismatic turning the whole thing into a total farce (because both Altar 5 as well as the Ride of the nine Kings suffice to produce insta shades under those conditions.) and Raiders especially helping with getting many early shades. (because if done by battles mostly 26 xp from raiders is even easier to get than 22 (if im not mistaken...) for charismatic...)
But then unrestricted leaders are horribly imbalanced for most civs...
Falamar is top for obvious reasons and Hannah seems highly interesting as well if played as Sidar-Leaders. (don't know all so much about the others...)
Feryl and Amelanchier should also be very nice.
Problem with Tasunke would be way better odds in your fights sorts of counteracting the effect of raiders. Decius' second trait doesn't seem all so much hot.
Adaptive leaders with the right traits work like a charm as well naturally (raiders early for getting 22 XP and Commando for many units as well as some good early shades) later charismatic for mass-shading of all those units getting to 22 XP way faster...
Cardith Lorda of the Sidar!
Puts the super! back in supercities.... (Who later don't rely on the output of all so many cities anyways. With 2-3 Centers for Research and Income as well as possibly one for GP-Farming.)
(I don't like unrestricted but its easy to figure what is horribly well with them. If you think about all that the "poor traits" of Sandalphon make much more sense. Most other traits might be overpowered for the sidar in one way or another...
) seems way best...Both dwarf Spiritual / Arcane. Big time!
With charismatic turning the whole thing into a total farce (because both Altar 5 as well as the Ride of the nine Kings suffice to produce insta shades under those conditions.) and Raiders especially helping with getting many early shades. (because if done by battles mostly 26 xp from raiders is even easier to get than 22 (if im not mistaken...) for charismatic...)
But then unrestricted leaders are horribly imbalanced for most civs...
Falamar is top for obvious reasons and Hannah seems highly interesting as well if played as Sidar-Leaders. (don't know all so much about the others...)
Feryl and Amelanchier should also be very nice.
Problem with Tasunke would be way better odds in your fights sorts of counteracting the effect of raiders. Decius' second trait doesn't seem all so much hot.
Adaptive leaders with the right traits work like a charm as well naturally (raiders early for getting 22 XP and Commando for many units as well as some good early shades) later charismatic for mass-shading of all those units getting to 22 XP way faster...
Cardith Lorda of the Sidar!
Puts the super! back in supercities.... (Who later don't rely on the output of all so many cities anyways. With 2-3 Centers for Research and Income as well as possibly one for GP-Farming.)
(I don't like unrestricted but its easy to figure what is horribly well with them. If you think about all that the "poor traits" of Sandalphon make much more sense. Most other traits might be overpowered for the sidar in one way or another...
orangelex44
Partisan
Sandalphon actually has a wicked trait with Industrious - easy Wonders means he can actually get the ones that give free XP. Defender... not so much, but not terrible. A 10% chance to let your level 5 unit escape that damn Orthus is really, really, really nice.
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