SIRE, Great balls of fire are raining down!!!!

[ZippyRiver]

Ok, so it's not THAT bad, but close. I am playing my first raging barbarians map, and let me tell YOU. They didn't mess around when they created that setting.

I ended up with a fairly large island/continent all to myself, and I am close to the northern end. I managed to get the island explored, and working my warrior/scout package back towards my borders. I got copper and horses, but no marble (again), and no stone (AGAIN ). I have not researched IW yet, but pffftt, when don't you get iron. I have not seen any barb cities yet, but there has been a steady stream of barbs comming out of the fog. So many, that I have to keep both cities on full unit production. I can't even take the time to build another settler because of the intensity of the barb flow. It has been mostly warriors but now I am seeing that change to axemen. I have been able to keep my area secure with archers and warriors, but those are not going to do much against the invading axes hellbent on pilliaging. I do have the horses secure so I can build chariots and my third settler is heading to the copper site. I had to chop that unit and the 3 turns it took to finish it was almost the end of it all due to the interruption in combat unit production.

This is all fine. A bit more intense than what I expected, but thats ok. At least with AI civs, you know that the units are comming from a city. With those barbs, you know where they are comming from too...... everywhere!

I have read on the board about barbs eventually having riflemen and other advanced units, so I have no reason to think this is going to get any easier. Again, this is all fine.

However.......(here it comes).......... Why the hell did they cap barbarian victories at 10 exp points! Normal maps I never really gave it much thought, but playing on this setting is dangerous. My archer holding off an axe attack should get exp points. It does not matter to the archer if it is a barb or other civ, it takes the same risk of being killed (I know, the player gets a barb bonus, but it's not enough to offset the point loss). I would like to see this cap removed in the next patch, or at least bumped up a level.

So my question is, is there a way to change that cap? I would like to make the following changes.

1> Barb animals capped at 10 instead 5. This way my early scouts have a chance at a 3rd promotion. They are useless against any other unit (including warriors)

2> Barb units not capped at all, or at the very least a 17 exp cap. Even if the unit could only get a max of 1 exp point per barb battle after 10 is reached. Though I am sure the latter would be much harder to implement. But if you must have a cap, that would be a better set-up than the current one imnsho.

3> Same with upgrading units. The 10 cap carryover is way too low. 17 would be much better. (I know, slightly different topic direction). The best experience you can get on a fresh unit is 14. Why would the upgrade cap be lower than that? dumb. Far too often I end up not wanting to upgrade a unit because it has 15/17 or 16/17 exp points, but that unit is now too outclassed to be of any real use.

Is there any way to make those changes? The first one is minor, really, as animals disappear from the game very early. (would like to animals stick around longer too). The second two are much more important from my pov.

Mod advise? Criticism? Your pov? All welcome.

I usually am not a mod user but... ^^^^^^

 

[Aldor]

I too would like to have no cap for exp from barbarians. As you said, the risk is the same if I attack a barb or another civ's warrior. Barbarians do also get promotions I think, are they too capped at a maximum?

I think it wouldn't change balance much either. Usually by the time my first units get to 10 exp from barbs, the map is filled so much that far fewer barbs spawn (with raging barbs setting on a standard map with normal amount of civs). So, raising the cap would not change much there. Of course, on larger maps or with fewer civs this may be different.

 

[Sahkuhnder]

I totally agree with both of your suggestions.

As a barbarian will kill you just as dead as a regular civ enemy I think the experience point cap is set too low. I understand in theory why the limit exists to keep you from milking exp from incoming barbs, but if you're doing that then you're playing on too low a difficulty level. On higher levels there is usually a brief period where I'm more worried about losing a city to the massive barb invasion that simply gathering up easy exp points.

Once you have your hard earned experience points it's frustrating to lose them at promotion time. You have to promote your units to keep them current, so why are you forced to lose your points? If the concern is to keep a unit from becoming too powerful I personally don't really see a problem. The promotions remain but your points reduce to 10. I've held units back from promotion that had 15/16 or 24/25/26 points for just this reason and that always seemed silly to me to not promote just because of a technical game rule.

Both of these rules are good in concept and are in place to prevent promotion exploits. IMHO if you're playing on a challenging difficulty level that these rules then become unnecessary and actually hinder realistic gameplay.

 

[Willem]

So my question is, is there a way to change that cap? I would like to make the following changes.

1> Barb animals capped at 10 instead 5. This way my early scouts have a chance at a 3rd promotion. They are useless against any other unit (including warriors)

2> Barb units not capped at all, or at the very least a 17 exp cap. Even if the unit could only get a max of 1 exp point per barb battle after 10 is reached. Though I am sure the latter would be much harder to implement. But if you must have a cap, that would be a better set-up than the current one imnsho.

3> Same with upgrading units. The 10 cap carryover is way too low. 17 would be much better. (I know, slightly different topic direction). The best experience you can get on a fresh unit is 14. Why would the upgrade cap be lower than that? dumb. Far too often I end up not wanting to upgrade a unit because it has 15/17 or 16/17 exp points, but that unit is now too outclassed to be of any real use.

Is there any way to make those changes? The first one is minor, really, as animals disappear from the game very early. (would like to animals stick around longer too). The second two are much more important from my pov.

Look for GlobalDefines.xml, it's in the root of your Assets/XML folder. The values you'd liked changed are all in there.

 

[Larsz]

I thought the cap was against all enemies, not just barbs? Meaning that if your unit killed 5 (or whatever the actual quantity it is) of the same enemy unit you stopped getting xp?

 

[Willem]

I thought the cap was against all enemies, not just barbs? Meaning that if your unit killed 5 (or whatever the actual quantity it is) of the same enemy unit you stopped getting xp?

Your thinking of a maximum per battle, which I think is in GlobalDefines as well. But Barbs have an overall cap of 10 points, 5 for Animals, so no matter how many of them you kill throughout the game, you'll never get more than 10 points from them.

 

[Spearthrower]

However.......(here it comes).......... Why the hell did they cap barbarian victories at 10 exp points! Normal maps I never really gave it much thought, but playing on this setting is dangerous. My archer holding off an axe attack should get exp points. It does not matter to the archer if it is a barb or other civ, it takes the same risk of being killed (I know, the player gets a barb bonus, but it's not enough to offset the point loss). I would like to see this cap removed in the next patch, or at least bumped up a level.

So my question is, is there a way to change that cap? I would like to make the following changes.

1> Barb animals capped at 10 instead 5. This way my early scouts have a chance at a 3rd promotion. They are useless against any other unit (including warriors)

2> Barb units not capped at all, or at the very least a 17 exp cap. Even if the unit could only get a max of 1 exp point per barb battle after 10 is reached. Though I am sure the latter would be much harder to implement. But if you must have a cap, that would be a better set-up than the current one imnsho.

3> Same with upgrading units. The 10 cap carryover is way too low. 17 would be much better. (I know, slightly different topic direction). The best experience you can get on a fresh unit is 14. Why would the upgrade cap be lower than that? dumb. Far too often I end up not wanting to upgrade a unit because it has 15/17 or 16/17 exp points, but that unit is now too outclassed to be of any real use.

Is there any way to make those changes? The first one is minor, really, as animals disappear from the game very early. (would like to animals stick around longer too). The second two are much more important from my pov.

Mod advise? Criticism? Your pov? All welcome.

I usually am not a mod user but... ^^^^^^

You could have read my mind! They are the exact same settings I decided to mod to! I increased the animals exp to 10, the barbs exp to unlimited and the upgrade drops to 17 exp.

I love having raging barbs but I want them to have some value. I also prefer to play on a modified marathon and gigantic map size, here the barbs rule the ancient age! I also increased the amount of barbs and their chance of placing a city...... this early period really is one of the most fun parts of the game!

The knock on effect is that both you and the AI civs have some nicely promoted troops for later warfare and the Barbarians feel like more of a nation with their cities having a chance to develop. This also leaves a fair bit of unclaimed land up to the Renaissance.

It added a lot to my enjoyment of the game.

 

[ZippyRiver]

If I make those changes, will they apply to the current game, or only on a new map.

I guess i need to get a mod swapper and do it right. Not that I would ever change it back, but one never knows.

So, I copy the xml file to the mods folder, then make the changes? Then have to use the swapper to load the game? the save?

<<< is quite gumpy in these things.

 

[cephyn]

An interesting Archipelgo idea:

what happened to me was i accidentally chose raging barbs instead of no barbs. oops. quite a surprise! since I was on archipeligo, I was able to build a "moving border" -- built some defensive units and used them at choke points on the island. I'd then send settlers behind them to fill the gap, build more units and move on to the next choke. worked pretty well, but slow. didn't seem the AI had as much trouble though, when i met them they didn't seem to have any difference in score/power. I wonder how they deal with barbs?

 

[Willem]

didn't seem the AI had as much trouble though, when i met them they didn't seem to have any difference in score/power. I wonder how they deal with barbs?

The AI gets a major bonus against Barbs, depending on your level. They start at the same level as the human does at Settler, and never go up. So the more difficult you make the barbs, it's going to impact your game more than it does the AI.

 

[ZippyRiver]

Cephyn, thats the awsome thing about this map. The "island" is a bit big for that. Not quite wide enough for 3 cities. There are 3 areas I am getting barbs from. The two peninsula to the north, and the lake of "fire" to the south. I am getting a new barb show up on easily 65% of my turns. The north is starting to slow down a bit, as I am finally able to get rid of the fog from most tiles. But the south is where the flow of axe are starting to come from. It really is a fantastic map for barb activity. The southern fog area is huge. It will take a long time, and lots of units to eliminate barbs from it.

I'll put up a screen shot next time (unless someone wants the initial save)

 

[cephyn]

I really hate barbarians, which is why i usually choose no barbarians. but raging barbs is kinda interesting.

zippy, i was thinking, to adapt my wall strategy, if i were in your situation, i'd try instead of building a full wall, build enough units to spread across chokes with 1 square in between. that way, no one can get by. similar effect.

 

[ZippyRiver]

The best way to eliminate barbs is to eliminate the fog. It's not really a matter of not letting any get by. With archers warriors and chariots to ward off axemen, a majority of the units would get killed. About all I have been able to do is match the flow of barb units and defend the borders, but production not up there yet to start making the advance into the fog. It's one reason I broke my own rule and chopped out a settler. I must get that copper so I can at least match axe for axe.

Sadly tho........It must get chalked up as a barbarian defeat. A final wave a several axemen broke through, and made short order of internal defences. I am not giving up though. I reloaded to a much earlier save, and am trying a different strategy. It's a good map to fine tune defensive strategies before moving up a level. If I can't survive a barbarian axeman rush, I won't be able to keep pace with the harder level AIs. I still have not met a single AI, so it's completly unknown who I will meet first, or even when. Only pre-knowledge I really have now is just my island. I look at it this way, I had my subordinates interview every man, woman and child in my empire for information or rumors regarding the lay of land. Even heard about another supply of horses and fish far to south from an old man with one eye and a divining rod.

This is as far out as I can zoom, not having calander yet.

 

[troytheface]

removing the cap on promotions against barbarians/animals? Lol- what an exploit. Might as well play a lower level, give yourself lots of gold and restart 12 times until u have a good spot. Then u can post ur win on a thread and can expound upon ur tactical brilliance.

 

[Blazer6]

Mansa Musa has one big city between three barbarian cities. there are enough mountains and hills to slow them down and allow massive experience gain. There are five defenders in that city and it is only because the strongest defender always get attacked that only he has three promotions.
I moved my army into the city to farm that experience.

 

[ZippyRiver]

....

reply deleted

 

[Aldor]

If I make those changes, will they apply to the current game, or only on a new map.

I guess i need to get a mod swapper and do it right. Not that I would ever change it back, but one never knows.

So, I copy the xml file to the mods folder, then make the changes? Then have to use the swapper to load the game? the save?

<<< is quite gumpy in these things.

I think that you only need to copy the XML file (from where you installed the game, to your "My files\Civ4\Assets" directory), and make your changes in the copied file. Then the game should use that file when you next start it, and the settings should be used for your loaded game too.

 

[Spearthrower]

removing the cap on promotions against barbarians/animals? Lol- what an exploit. Might as well play a lower level, give yourself lots of gold and restart 12 times until u have a good spot. Then u can post ur win on a thread and can expound upon ur tactical brilliance.

Would you mind explaining where all this is coming from? Just unfounded flames by the looks of it, or overly purist.

From what I can read people have upped the exp gained against animals to 10 exp, not removed it.... what an exploit! Now I can slaughter animals in wild abandon then destroy all civs with my l337 Scout of Do0m!

Increasing the experience gained from Barbs also benefits the AI civs, especially with their bonus versus Barbs. Hardly a major exploit.

If you had actually tried it, you would also find that you dont end up with countless troops with massive upgrades, but your initial core of troops tend to have around 17-25 exp as Barbs don't really last that long unless you are on a solo continent. Again, can't really see this as a major creator of imbalance.

Lower level? Just a random comment or do you have anything worthwhile to add to it? I can't see how it impacts on the level of the game?

Give yourself lots of gold? Hmmm, see the way I look at it is that using a mod is far different than cheating, I don't want to win the game when I start, I just intend to improve the play experience. That doesn't include making it easier.

Restarting, from what I can see, also appears to have nothing to do with modding some files around. I only restart on the most ridiculous of maps, otherwise I play whatever comes along for as long as its fun.

As for the last sentence, maybe some people are like that, but you have no right to tar everyone with your condescending brush. Not everyone plays this game to achieve forum fame.... I am sure a significant percentage play for fun. Also, modding a few files to have epic battles with Barbs and gain a bit more exp from it is hardly so game breaking as to invalidate a strategic understanding of the game.

I am happy modding my game to increase the fun for me. Do I cheat? Not by any definition of cheating I've ever seen!

It would have been nice if you had thought through what you had to say before making random, unsupported comments that either helped the thread or at least tried to manage a tone of polite disagreement.

 

[Loyran]

Removing the cap would lead to some kind of power-leveling type of exploit. Then you'd have people leveling a unit just by having it hang around a barb city and they'd end up with a killer level 20 unit.
Comes modern times and you upgrade your archer to Mech. Infantry with all the promotions, that kind of things.

 

[ZippyRiver]

Spearthorwer, I really don't mind troy's comments. I got a little irked at first and replied in a slightly hostile and like manner, but deleted it. In the original post, I welcomed criticism so I can hardly complain when some one approaches the topic in that light. Granted, as a critique, it was poorly written as it did not include any reasoning as to why he feels it would be an exploit. But lack of skills in that area does not invalidate the opinion. I would like a calm and reasonable explaination of that pov, but that might be asking too much, given the current evidence.

That being said. Lets take a good look at the core of the comment, that this would be a huge exploit. I think milking a barb town for exp points is what was going through their mind, though who knows. I completly agree with that aspect. I think milking ANY city for exp points is exploitive, barbarian or not. I don't, won't, and never would have done that. The exploit would be in the "hanging around a barb city", not in how many experience points one gets from battles. And like I said, If I wanted to do that, I would decimate a smaller AI civ, leaving it in a vassal state and milk points from there. I don't need to edit anything to exploit the game in that manner.

I know the human player gets a small bonus when fighting barbarians. Perhaps a change to the original idea IS in order. If someone chooses to edit the experience cap on barbarians, is there also a way to remove the barbarian bonus received by the player? That way, fighting a barbarian would be no different than a named civ, which as we all know does not have an exp cap.

Comparing the editing to the other things mentioned is just silly.

I even went as far as to look back a other posts, to see if I could find one where using a mod was mentioned. Did not find any except for the blue marble mod, and as far as I know that only changes visual aspects. What I did find interesting, was the sheer number of similar post towards others. I was left with the distinct impression of a sad little grumpy person that has no clue about interreaction with others, nor any idea of how to deal with their own personal demons and taking it out on whom ever may be available. Sad, really.

I don't have any problem with someone that is a purist, as I am aswell. I have never been one to add mods that change the flavor of the game as it is designed. However, one of the features of the game is it's modability. Modding the game for your own enjoyment, is not really any more of an exploit than using workers to chop settlers. It is something the developers allowed in the game, knew that people would use it, and determined it not too unbalancing. Otherwise it would have been hardcoded, and unavailable for modification.