SirPleb, Going for Sid

I love this thread SirPleb. :) Just a quick (newbie?) question.... how did you get the pops in the cities on former Aztec continent so high so quickly? By joining workers into the cities?
 
Simply Amazing!! (and very educational) I see the Army issue is a Conquests issue; good to know, but I haven't even installed my version yet! I figured I'd wait until the patches had somewhat stabilized, and I barely have time for GOTM anyway, which doesn't support Conquests yet.

The Funnel of Doom is a very nice way to do attrition on the in-coming force :D (I rarely get more than 2-3 armies in a game, which won't even form a Cone of Annoyance ;) ) Another example of how poor the I in AI is! (Let's march into that Funnel of Doom - It's the only way to get to that city we're never going to take!!) If nothing else, it might be nice if the different AI civs were set up to implement some of these "strategies" and forego others; this might trip up the experienced human player a bit who develops and uses Killer Strategies that work 100% because every AI civ does the same thing under the same circumstances.
 
QUOTE:
-----------------------------------
Changes I'd like to see:
1) It should not be possible to rush army builds with cash.
2) Change the AI to attack armies in the open, prioritizing armies sitting on resources.
3) Change the AI to build armies.
-------------------------------

I think this is overkill. If armies are balanced (through #2 and #3), i see no problem with cash rushing them like any other unit. However, if the armies stay the way they are now, then #1 should definitely take effect. All three together would be too much, i think.

Travis
 
Originally posted by felagund
I love this thread SirPleb. :) Just a quick (newbie?) question.... how did you get the pops in the cities on former Aztec continent so high so quickly? By joining workers into the cities?

Workers or Settlers, the question is how many were natives.
 
Originally posted by zerksees
I am a big fan of radar towers. You can't always find a hill to put the city on but you can always build a radar tower. While reading your progress I thought you might have considered going down that part of the tech tree first to help your existing units. The extra 25% (IIRC) would surely require less units to hold the city - might speed up the invasion as less armies needed to form the funnels of doom.

Also bringing along workers or settlers to push the population to 7 on the first turn is a viable variant with proper rivers or lakes nearby.
Those sure do both seem good things to do when possible. Hurrying to radar towers is a tradeoff because some time without any research at all can help by funding new armies - I think the best decision in any particular situation depends on how close one is to radar towers already.

I did bring along workers to boost the population in both of my invasions. I didn't worry about settling on a hill or a river/lake - when invading an isolated Sid AI it seems best to immediately take any available landing site. It might not be there next turn when they shuffle their units around :) Given a choice I'd take hills as first priority, a river or lake second. If there's no river spot, the Funnel buys enough time before the enemy arrives in force to rush an Aqueduct and join workers or rush Walls.
Originally posted by bradleyfeanor
By the way, are you going to go for the eptathlon award on GOTM? One little 100k win away.
Thanks bradleyfeanor! I loved the ballad title too, tempted to try changing the thread title :)

Going for a 100k GOTM is very high on my list! What a temptation! I'd have tried for it this month if I didn't have this monster game on the go already.
Originally posted by felagund
how did you get the pops in the cities on former Aztec continent so high so quickly? By joining workers into the cities?
Originally posted by vmxa
Workers or Settlers, the question is how many were natives.
Settlers! I'd overbuilt them a bit vs. Workers. They are however very efficient for transporting population, 2 citizens per transport unit. I sent a lot of Settlers and some Workers to the Aztec beachhead while fighting them. Something useful for the Transports to do :) Some of the Settlers formed the new towns, the rest joined them for a fast population boost. I hadn't joined any workers (transported or Aztec) at the time of that screenshot - they had to irrigate and railroad every used tile first, and then clear pollution. After that they could also join cities.
Originally posted by civ_steve
I see the Army issue is a Conquests issue
Absolutely! I rarely built armies before Conquests. They only seemed useful in some specific situations. In Conquests they've been hugely increased in power and it has become the more the merrier!
 
I reread from page 4 and did not see how you managed to keep the AI from tanks so late?

Like I said, I do not have any experience with Sid on Huge maps, mostly std and a few large ones. If the game gets to the late 1500AD's on a std map, the top dog will have tanks or will soon.

Is it just the function of the map size? I can see the increased isolation period slowing them down, but once they get Astro they move out and then get tech for oceans.

On large maps, you get more time before they break out. So what are the keys to reducing the tech pace?

You cannot get the lighthouse and the Lib on a std map without getting a SGL, so the AI almost always gets the Lighthouse. I find the same holds up for large maps as well, but I won't say it can't be done.

I should have mentioned that I know you used no barbs to prevent tech from huts.
 
Originally posted by vmxa
I reread from page 4 and did not see how you managed to keep the AI from tanks so late?

Like I said, I do not have any experience with Sid on Huge maps, mostly std and a few large ones. If the game gets to the late 1500AD's on a std map, the top dog will have tanks or will soon.

Is it just the function of the map size? I can see the increased isolation period slowing them down, but once they get Astro they move out and then get tech for oceans.

On large maps, you get more time before they break out. So what are the keys to reducing the tech pace?
The tech cost increase for Huge maps is probably a significant factor.

Another large factor I think is that I have at most times kept most of the AIs allied against the one I'm currently attacking, and that's usually been the largest / most advanced one. So the other AIs can't trade for tech, each usually has to do its own research.

It also seems that their trade costs (or rebates, I'm not sure how it works) have gone up a bit in C3C, slowing their trade somewhat.

The ongoing warfare helps by keeping them out of Republic and Democracy, keeping their gross income lower.

I wonder if the scarcity of luxuries due to just 9 Civs on a huge map might be another factor? It wouldn't surprise me if the AIs have been having a hard time keeping all citizens happy.

And then there's the high unit support for the AIs. Arathorn pointed out earlier that the AIs can easily afford to run at negative income and are likely doing so. I sure haven't seen much gold available - it is very rare that I was able to trade for gpt. But I still wonder if they might compensate somewhat over time, I do want to check that out. Any payment toward their huge military counts would impact their research capacity.
 
SirPleb, I haven't really read all this thread but -
a. I will read it as soon as I go Sid..
b. you are aware that you are actually writing a first guide to Sid..?! That's great for all of us (not mentioning me going on every word to learn some Sid/milking dilemas.

I'm actually closing in on Sid faster than I'm going to milk, so this guide will be usable soon.
Sorry I'm too preoccupied with my own dilemas and games (and work and sleep) to participate in some threads, especially when a master is playing Sid!

Well, I go zip myself to bed soon..
Have fun, just know even people that don't write posts here still read eagerly..

Chaim.
 
I know that map size impacts the research rate. I actually made an excel spread to calc it. I just am not sure what that will mean to me at Sid. It will surely make the humans research much harder.

I also do not have any idea how much the luxs plays, but I would think not much. The AI will use entertainers, but it wil be the same on all levels fom Emp on up. Sure if they have no lux, that will cost them.

The concept of getting them to war is common, but hard to implement at Sid. I mean what you have to offer? Normally it takes techs, but you won't have them to offer and would not anyway as that defeats the idea. Next is lux, but you will be a long time coming to get the ability to trade over ocean tiles, if you wanted to do it.

One thing that hurts them is if they get a start location that is not next to a river.

As you have seen they are mostly always broke.
 
SirPleb on the subject of KAI's I was just wondering how much better the Zulus were doing than the rest technologically and culturally just before you attacked them?

If they had finished off the American's and taken their land would they have been able to take a cultural win over the Incans?
 
Eliminating Some Rivals

After destroying the Aztecs and resettling their lands my world map, at 1705AD, looked like this:

sirpleb-hof-cfc1-9a.jpg


My next large target would be China. I decided she could wait for a while. I'd make a new deal for furs with her (my previous deal would expire in 1710AD) and spend some time cleaning out the remnants of my previous rivals.

I destroyed the remnants of America in 1715AD, the Mongols in 1735AD, the Zulu in 1750AD, and the Inca also in 1750AD. Inca culture had reached 145033 at the time of their destruction.

War With China

China declared war on me in 1752AD. I guess that with most other Civs removed from the game I became more of a target. And due to all the cities I've razed in this game all of the AIs have been furious with me since quite a while ago.

My military wasn't in position to invade China yet but many of them were on their way. China's declaration of war was almost as well timed as I could ask for - I lost a luxury but gained some reverse war weariness and sped up my invasion schedule :)

My military was strong enough at this time to invade China and defeat her in head-on war if I used my armies carefully. Still, China's forces weren't small. She had about 900 military units, the strongest ones being Guerillas. I decided to try "poofing" instead of fighting. A test of the alternating Funnel theory.

Over the next few turns I landed armies at three points along the Chinese coast. This action seemed to draw Chinese troops out of their cities. I don't know why. I know they won't attack armies in the open. Perhaps units were being shuffled to the cities nearest my invaders.

In 1758AD I captured the Chinese city of Shantung and left just one way to reach it without attacking my armies:

sirpleb-hof-cfc1-9b.jpg


It took three turns for Chinese units to get close enough to Shantung that I needed to switch to the other "Funnel". In 1764AD I blocked the invaders in the east and opened a path in the west:

sirpleb-hof-cfc1-9c.jpg


The AI went for it. This army trick, sending the AI back and forth, turns out to be simple AI "puppet strings", the same as can happen with blocked AI settlers. If I wasn't already confident that I could have defeated China head on I'd have felt guilty about this manipulation. Almost the entire Chinese military arrived at my doorstep, leaving just four defenders behind in each city. The huge Chinese force pointlessly shuffled back and forth as I changed the available path to Shantung.

In the meantime the bulk of my armies continued to arrive elsewhere on the Chinese coast and began attacking the weakly defended cities. It didn't take long. By 1774AD I'd reduced China to one city on an island. I checked her military - she had 823 units, almost all of them in the stacks attempting to reach Shantung. I destroyed three units defending the last city and *POOF* - the other 820 Chinese military units disappeared from the game. This approach (Funnel Of Deception?) certainly is a fast way to dispose of an AI :)

Now I have just Egypt left in the game. I've given her a tundra town, surrounded it, and tried to plant a spy this turn (1774AD.) She caught the spy and declared war. She is weak and backward, I won't have any difficulty reducing her to just that one tundra town.

Milking

I've been researching as quickly as I can toward building Mass Transit. Pollution has become quite a nuisance - I'm getting an average of about 8 tiles polluted each turn. I expect to learn Ecology two turns from now, in 1778AD.

Each turn still takes a long time, I have a lot of reorganization to do, abandoning some old territory in favor of better milking lands. I have much left to do in the 1774AD turn, claiming ex-Chinese territory, joining workers, and repositioning troops to head for Egypt. My current minimap at 1774AD after eliminating China and beginning the resettlement process:

sirpleb-hof-cfc1-9d.jpg


Next turn I'll have furs connected (via a rushed harbor in ex-China) and will finally be at eight owned luxuries - phew!

Current score is 32213.
 
Originally posted by vmxa
The concept of getting them to war is common, but hard to implement at Sid. I mean what you have to offer?
It does cost at Sid. At other levels I've usually found I can keep the wars I want going at no cost, sometimes even making a profit. In this game I've been paying. I've gone through my notes to see what I paid for alliances in this game, found the following:

130AD, Aztecs: Monotheism for silks+alliance.vs.Mongols
130AD, Inca: 31gpt for alliance.vs.Mongols
130AD, Arabia: 20gpt for alliance.vs.Mongols
540AD, America: 11gpt for alliance.vs.Arabia
750AD, Zulu: 43gpt for alliance.vs.America
980AD, Inca: spices for alliance.vs.Zulu + 561g
1270AD, Zulu: coal for alliance.vs.Inca
1365AD, Aztecs: coal+saltpeter for alliance.vs.Inca
1610AD, China: The Corporation for alliance.vs.Aztecs
 
Originally posted by Timko
SirPleb on the subject of KAI's I was just wondering how much better the Zulus were doing than the rest technologically and culturally just before you attacked them?

If they had finished off the American's and taken their land would they have been able to take a cultural win over the Incans?
Interesting questions.

At 820AD when I recaptured the Great Library, the Zulu were ahead of everyone else by at least 2 techs - Industrialization and Fascism. I think they were ahead by 4 techs - I'm not sure what they had past Industrialization but my guess is that they had The Corporation and Espionage at that date.

Here's the culture graph when I went to war with the Zulu at 880AD:

sirpleb-hof-cfc1-r1.jpg


I suspect that unchecked the Zulu would've had a cultural win over the Inca because they already had about twice as many cities, and would end up with more than that by taking over America. The Inca would probably never gain many cities since they'd filled their island and the AIs don't invade well across water. So once the Zulu built all the cultural improvements in all their cities, they'd start winning the culture race. But whether by enough to win a cultural victory isn't certain. And if they maintained and extended their tech lead (seems likely to me) then they might win by space race before reaching double the Incan culture. I wonder which way it would've gone...
 
While distracting Mao at his gates, you destroyed his Ring (tried to think of a real history comparison, but this was just too good a fit). 823 units: ha! Fabulous. Your D&D Funnels (Deception and Doom) are tremendously powerful. This latter deception technique appears to take far fewer armies to implement: could be useful on smaller maps like my current game (I hope).

Two questions, Gandalf…I mean Sir Pleb.
icon7.gif


I have noticed the Sid AI taking 5-10 pop-shots (Cavalry attacks) each turn at my Swiss Merc armies on mountains in his territory. Thankfully, he stops there and does not come with the 1000+ units at his disposal. I am currently transporting a knight army to his land to see if he takes shots at it as well. Does the AI take pop-shots at your Cavalry armies?

Also, when you pick out better milking land, are there factors other than max food output and number of sea squares that you consider?

Good luck with that score!

Brad
 
I guess that you felt it would not increase the research pace to give them the stuff for alliances. I understand the value of signing up someone in order to not have them come in against you.

I am just not sure if there is any value in their fighting on your side. They tend not to put up much of an effort. They invade so poorly that I am not sure if I would care. I guess not having to deal with bombardment by ship is useful.
 
Very impressive funnel of deception :goodjob:
What is nice about this that fewer armies are needed than the original funnel of doom.

I bet your next attempt at Sid will go much faster! Not only have you found a hole in the AI program but you are proving that you can drive a train through that hole.

I guess we can hope it gets patched - perhaps this one could be fixed by having the AI put a little more emphasis on defense (like a % of total forces rather than 4 units per city). Or maybe when the AI has you outnumbered 20-1 or more it might consider attacking armies.

Thanks a ton for sharing your game and strategies.
 
Originally posted by bradleyfeanor
I have noticed the Sid AI taking 5-10 pop-shots (Cavalry attacks) each turn at my Swiss Merc armies on mountains in his territory. Thankfully, he stops there and does not come with the 1000+ units at his disposal. I am currently transporting a knight army to his land to see if he takes shots at it as well. Does the AI take pop-shots at your Cavalry armies?
No, it doesn't take shots at my Cavalry armies. I haven't any idea to explain this behaviour, it is weird. I wonder what's going on there? It sure would be good if we could guess the reason for this. I bet it was scary the first time it happened to you, thinking oh no, there goes my army!

Originally posted by bradleyfeanor
Also, when you pick out better milking land, are there factors other than max food output and number of sea squares that you consider?
It is pretty much just those two for me. When I have choices which seem equal in those regards then I'll of course prefer river / lake / hill locations when available.

Originally posted by vmxa
I understand the value of signing up someone in order to not have them come in against you.

I am just not sure if there is any value in their fighting on your side. They tend not to put up much of an effort. They invade so poorly that I am not sure if I would care. I guess not having to deal with bombardment by ship is useful.
Yup, some of the alliances I took were mainly to ensure that a particular Civ didn't ally with my enemy. Some others were just to ensure that the AIs wouldn't trade techs. When I was attacking the most advanced Civ, I didn't want the next tier of AIs to be able to research along another path and then trade with the most advanced one. So I allied them against the advanced Civ, leaving it with no one who'd be likely to afford to trade for its techs.

Originally posted by zerksees
Thanks a ton for sharing your game and strategies.
I'm glad that you and many others are finding this thread interesting to read! That makes this game, and writing about it, a lot of fun for me. :) Thank you!
 
The Last War

In 1774AD I began war on Egypt. (She started it actually, over-reacting to my attempt to spy on her ;) )

To avoid ending the game too early I'll be keeping Egypt alive. Before beginning this war I'd given her a tundra town ("Padded Cell") and surrounded it with units. That town will be her final rest home. I hope Cleopatra can find something warmer to wear than her usual outfit.

Since I won't be eliminating Egypt I couldn't "poof" her military, I had to kill them off. She hadn't entered the Industrial Age, and didn't have saltpeter nor iron. So no Riflemen, no Musketeers, and not even any Pikemen. Should be easy.

And it was. My Cruisers quickly set up sentry points around her island. I never did see an Egyptian ship. Over the following turns I transported about 40 Cavalry armies and a couple of Infantry armies to Egypt. I encountered hundreds (didn't count them, hard to guess but I think something well over 500) of Egyptian units. There were Spearmen, Longbowmen, Archers, and even some War Chariots, Horsemen, and Warriors. I founded an invasion town when I was sure I could handle it and fortified some units there for Egypt to attack. And kept attacking with everything I had every turn. It was just a simple slaughter, nothing fancy this time.

In 1790AD I razed the last Egyptian city other than Padded Cell. So that's my conquest date for this game, i.e. the date when I could complete a conquest. Outrageously bad. The worst conquest date I've had in a long time. And yet I'm happy with it! :) This is after all a huge Sid map.

In 1796AD I destroyed the last Egyptian unit outside of Padded Cell and gave her peace.

Milking

I'm now at 1796AD and there is still a fair bit to do to maximize score. The return for milking won't be as high as usual since I'm about 2/3 of the way through the game in number of turns - each per-turn point gained at this date will add just 1/3 point to the final score. Still, milking will add up to a fair bit when all done.

Civil Engineers are helping. They've already built many Marketplaces, Aqueducts, Harbors, Hospitals, and Mass Transits.

My income is quite high, especially considering that I'm in Monarchy and have few Banks and Stock Exchanges. Net income at this date is 4941gpt!

sirpleb-hof-cfc1-10a.jpg


There are two reasons income is this good:
1) The improved Taxmen in Conqusts. 2gpt from each instead of 1. My current income from taxmen is 3172gpt. That's 1586gpt more than the same taxmen would have produced before Conquests.
2) Reduced maximum corruption in Conquests. Gross income from cities is 9285gpt, corruption is 6566gpt. Totally corrupt cities (and I have a bit over 400 of them) are contributing more gold than did before Conquests, many of them 4gpt. Which makes me think, hmmm, what about Courthouses? I'll start using Civil Engineers to build some in corrupt cities, will see how much they can improve income.

I'll start disbanding military units now to boost construction. Civil Engineers and about 5,000gpt of rushing will help things along until all buildings are finished.

My score is now 34,592. I'll definitely be passing the 60,000 mark in final score. My guess at this point is a final score around 62,000.

Minimap at 1796AD:

sirpleb-hof-cfc1-10b.jpg
 
Thats amazing, it takes me until 1700 to get to that stage normally on Diety!

Has your ppt peaked yet? If so what can you get per turn at Sid?
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
Since I won't be eliminating Egypt I couldn't "poof" her military, I had to kill them off.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"Poof" is far too soft a word for the brutal yet technical and successful trick you refer too...
 
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