Slavic Federation

Yeah, sorry but that still makes no sense. A mistake eans that there was a decision and an error. A war hardly classifies as such. Maybe they fired their missiles in accident. But that would still be a stretch. "The Great Mistake" sounds very much like the international community or some very big corporations tried something risky to help the earth in some way, which backfired then.
If it was "just" a war history would call it "The Great Nuclear War" or even just third world war.

I'm not saying that a nuclear war wouldn't cause enough global problems for such a label just that the name does not fit.

I think you are being put of by the "The"

'The Great Mistake' was technically a period of multiple 'great mistakes'. Ie multiple decisions which were Bad decisions... In combination they led to the dark age.
However, because many of them are interconnected either in causing each other or magnifying each other's impact, people probably refer to individual events as 'the Great Mistake'.
(Partially since everyone can agree mistakes were made, but not always what was the biggest one)
 
I think you are being put of by the "The"

'The Great Mistake' was technically a period of multiple 'great mistakes'. Ie multiple decisions which were Bad decisions... In combination they led to the dark age.
However, because many of them are interconnected either in causing each other or magnifying each other's impact, people probably refer to individual events as 'the Great Mistake'.
(Partially since everyone can agree mistakes were made, but not always what was the biggest one)

That would be better than calling a regional nuclear war "The Great Mistake" but yes, the "The" makes it seem, like it was a single event or chain of events. If it really multiple events and a longer timeperiod, why would it not called "The period/age Of Mistakes" or such? ;)
But what these kind of discussions show, is that it might really be better, to not know too much about the background story.
 
"The Great Mistake" sounds nice and vague.

Which is probably what they want, a vague apocalyptic event, because they don't want to explain to us exactly what happened because it isn't the focus of the game, just a catalyst.
 
That would be better than calling a regional nuclear war "The Great Mistake" but yes, the "The" makes it seem, like it was a single event or chain of events. If it really multiple events and a longer timeperiod, why would it not called "The period/age Of Mistakes" or such? ;)
But what these kind of discussions show, is that it might really be better, to not know too much about the background story.

Same reason it is called 'the' fall of the Roman Empire... it was really a period... With one overriding effect, and multiple events are potentially involved...and endlessly debated

'The Great Mistake' is both the name for the period, like the great depression...but also the name of whichever of the group thinks is the most important event (eg KP dates it from the nuclear war)
 
Same reason it is called 'the' fall of the Roman Empire... it was really a period... With one overriding effect, and multiple events are potentially involved...and endlessly debated

'The Great Mistake' is both the name for the period, like the great depression...but also the name of whichever of the group thinks is the most important event (eg KP dates it from the nuclear war)

Apples and oranges. "The Fall of the Roman Empire" has no "great" in it which makes it specific. If we are really talking about a period of time, the name is really unfitting and confusing.
 
Krajzen said:
'very divided' (Poland)

In what way is Poland "very divided" ???

Krajzen said:
d) Generally Siberia is extremely sparsely populated for a reason, right?

Some population density maps over here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13369076&postcount=5315

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13369144&postcount=5317

Greasy Dave said:
Because of our history Russia and Pan Slavism is seen at best as a joke and more usually with contempt.

Pan-Slavism is not a Russian invention, even though maybe later Russia "stole" it as its own ideology.

But during the First Pan-Slavic Congress in 1848, in Prague, Russian representatives were not even present. During that 1848 Congress, there were present: Czechs, Moravians, Slovaks, Czech Silesians, Polish Silesians, Poles, Rusyns from Galicia (Western Ukrainians), Croats, Slovenes, Dalmatians and Serbs.

And there were historic ideas of panslavism. Poland as messiah of nations was a trend in Polish art at a time.

That notion of Poland as messiah of [Southern Slavic] nations was also present in "Osman" written by Ivan Gundulić (1589 - 1638).
 
Yeah, no tired USSR cliche's.

I'd rather see the USA/ Reclamation Corp be the dark, somewhat sinister civ. The Brave New World to the USSR's Animal Farm. A hyper materialistic oligarchy full of contradictions. An Ayn Randian dystopia of hyper individualism that keeps society hyper competitive and divided, but socially united through jingoism and manifest destiny. Holds its self to be a meritocracy, but is an intense oligarchy with almost no upward mobility. Where as the Soviet trope is annexing lands, the Reclamation Corp's would be domination trough economic imperialism (which would it by Brazillia being militaristic as a reaction since they share the region). A kind of velvet glove fascism, the whole "the best kind of slave is the one who thinks his shackles are what makes him free".

Propaganda slogans like: "Freedom through strength, Strength through competition", "Cooperation is the death of the individual!", "Liberty is the grease, you are the gears!", "No free man is poor! Liberty is the only true wealth!".


I think it would be cool to go in the other direction for the Slavic Federation. When I hear Federation, I think IWW and Anarchism (Libertarian Socialism). Like in the 200 years since the Great Mistake and the rise of the Reclamation Corp's hyper individualistic capitalist imperialism the Federation formed as a different path drawing on it's roots in the likes of Nestor Makhno/ Peter Kropotkin and the Anarchist Free States. A kind of Slavic Renaissance based in the works of the Libertarian Communists. The Federation could refer to economic federations of workers, rather than states. Focused on individual liberty but economic collectivism. Economically, market socialist. Having a strong military to defend themselves from a kind of new coldwar with the Reclamation Corp.
 
Hi, guys, want to put my two cents in this discussion.
As was already mentioned, I hope too that the faction lore and mechanics are flexible enough for everyone to imagine the society they're building however they want, after all Sid Meyer himself mentioned iirc that it's part of his game-building philosophy to engage the players imagination as much as possible.

Going back to Slavic Federation in particular, many interesting ideas were proposed here how the faction could be imagined without the Orwellian cliches and Soviet "klyukva" on one hand and also without the leading role of Russia on the other hand. I personally tend to think that a fresh take on the matter is a good thing after all, because this is how Firaxis treated the rest of the factions anyway, and more importantly, speaking of Russia in particular, despite being overdone in gaming industry, in fact Russian culture and history has too many facets that have never been represented in computer games yet, not to mention that other Slavic peoples have barely been represented at all, so falling back on the familiar cliches would be a waste imo.

The latter can also be a good reason for letting Russia take a rest from the job of the leader of a faction for once, since it's been hundreds of years and the Great Mistake after all, and new superpowers such as Brasilia are getting their place in the limelight and Russia already resigned from being a superpower once in our irl pre-BE history already, so dragging it back on the stage would be like someone just can't let go of the past. So there are tons of good reasons why SF does not equal Russia in fact. Moreover, I would like to suggest that not only other existing Slavic nations could take a leading role in the Federation but some new (or well forgotten old) Slavic identity could (re)appear by the time of BE, since this is also kind of what the rest of the factions are about too.
Being Russian myself though, I'm of course not ready to accept the SF without my own country completely, but even I can say that even if in one of the variants of my personal lore SF will be Russian based, the bulk of the Russian traits are going to be omitted and anything from the other Slavic nations will be a welcome addition.

On the other hand I'll say that the first game I will play I'm going to imagine SF based on the culture of cossacks, which not only is an antithesis to the 1984-esque society but is also somewhat distinct culturally from Russia itself. Cossacks are even arguably more of a Ukrainian concept than Russian, and in fact are somewhat ethnically diverse with non-Slavs often included in their communities, while united more by culture rather than ethnicity. Cossack are a perfect image to describe something like an expedition to another planet imo, since this is exactly what they were doing historically, living on the frontier of their civilization, pushing it's borders outwards and trying to survive in a hostile environment. And notably one of the reasons that drove them to remote places and all these hardships was the oppression of the Czars. So, while quite traditionalist with Orthodox Christianity being an indispensable part of their culture and militarized out of necessity to fight for their lives every day cossacks are in fact freedom loving sometimes to the point of anarchism.
Speaking of which, I also wanted to mention Makhno and Kropotkin, but Detroitdregs did it earlier, thumbs up. Tradition of anarchism is another possible direction that couldn't be further from the 1984 cliches.

Going back to cossacks and the tradition of exploration though it should be noted that many of the famous Russian explorers come from this group too, and I have to strongly disagree with the statement someone made here or in some other thread that no Slavic nation has a history of exploration. If it was true Russia simply wouldn't have all this land which amounts to 1/8 of all Earth's landmass. In fact such traditions date back as far as Afanasy Nikitin of the 15th century. To name someone of a Polish heritage there's Nikolay Przhevalsky. And again many of them came from cossacks like Semyon Dezhnyov, and most notably Yermak, whose conquest of Siberia I personally fancy as a sort of a role model for the SF expedition to the Planet in my first BE game. And by the way, all these people and others I could but didn't list for the sake of conciseness are all off the top of my head and I'm not a specialist in history or anything, so all of them I known from the school course and watching a couple of educational programs on TV (and this is also the reason why I only mentioned Russian explorers since I only know what is taught over here, so no offense), so make your own judgement if the Slavs have a history of exploration or not.

Also, this frontier democracy factor opens another possible interpretation for Slavic Federation: SF as a state might in fact be quite Orwellian, but the SF space expedition might just be an exact opposite of that, comprised of the people who got fed up with dictatorship and old Earth in general and used this opportunity to go look for their freedom on another planet just like cossacks of the past.

This is not even the only scenario I'm planning to play out, there are others with more or less prominent roles for Russia and other Slavic nations in the Federation as well as higher or lower concentration of klyukva (I might go full Red Alert 2 in one of my playthroughs if only for laughs).
Imperial Russia is also an obvious source of inspiration, but that was already mentioned.

Also first post on this forum, but I've been lurking for a while. Sorry for the wall of text, and sorry if these versions were already mentioned. I've been following this discussion for a while but it's been so long that I forgot if cossacks were mentioned or not.
 
Personally, what I'd fancy to see is the SF is something that I already alluded to in the religion thread - i.e. SF being some sort of "New Byzantium", ruled by the Senate but with the United Orthodox-Catholic church (following the decline of Catholicism in the West, the Papacy could very well relocate to devoutly religious countries like Poland and form a sort of alliance with the Orthodox church) playing an important role. Such state would involve a strong army (which would explain a "General" leading the expedition) but at the same time would not be heavily militaristic (i.e. would not overlap with Brasilia) but more traditionalistic, with some anachronistic outfits etc. (for example General Kozlov would not look like a Soviet or modern general but more like the Emperor in "Dune").
 
'very divided' (Poland) or 'relatively happy little countries like Czech Republic with absolutely no meaning on global stage'. Add to this demographic cataclysm, massive emigration to the West, general feelings of historical failure, deep divisions between many little nations and awful geopolitical placement between Russian military superpower and Western economic superpower... Of course 200 years is much time but IMHO Eastern European countries (excluding Russia) would be the least probable candidates for global superpower in future.

Since when is Poland divided?

"Russian military superpower" superpower with rapidly declining population, dying culture, and economy based only on some natural resources...
 
'very divided' (Poland)

Krajzen, in which Poland are you living? :eek2: At the moment, Poland enjoys 95-98% ethnic homogenity. Political (and Silesian) disputes don't really matter. I know they might matter in the next 100 and 200 years, but currently Poland is pretty much a solidified, unitarian country. A poorly-run one, but whatever.

But I digress. Too bad we didn't see anything on the Slavs in today's stream. I'd certainly appreciate it. I always thought, and was afraid of, Kozlov and the Federation being a cliched neo-USSR kind of thing; but I think I shouldn't be - because most of the BE civs are cliches. Bolivar representing your typical Latin American junta, the ARC being the evil American corporation, the Asians being the human hive and Pan Asian Coalition from Battlefield 2142 with a slightly changed name, etc. I think only Hutama breaks the stereotype, and provides an Indonesian entrepreneur leading Australia and company into the stars. So even though I'm not happy with the Slavic Federation being, potentiarlly, the new Soviet Union, I think I'll grow accustomed to it. Unless someone makes them use a Tsarist or Pan-Slavic (white-blue) colour scheme and an icon with a double-headed eagle. then my doubts will disappear.

Also, I like the name of Slavic space capital, Khrabost. Weird at first, it's growing on me. First, it means courage in Russian and Serbian, second it hints at the Polish king Boleslaus I Chrobry (the Brave), third it sounds appropriate. I can't wait to read the Slavic backstory in BE - however weird it may be.
 
From recent stream
"Instruct the children not to dream of toys or sweets. Instruct them to dream of infrastructure"
- Vadim Kozlov, Axioms from the Minutes of the Central Directorate.
That sounds like some kind of orwellian Ministry of Truth.
 
"Minutes of the Central Directorate" all but confirms they went with a Soviet/Stalinist trope. Oh well. I hope at least they add some nice twist to the cliche.
 
"Minutes of the Central Directorate" all but confirms they went with a Soviet/Stalinist trope. Oh well. I hope at least they add some nice twist to the cliche.
I just get the vibe that they're channelling socialist constructivsm and futurism with it. Remember, the names chosen by the Soviet Union weren't supposed to sound evil, it's just the association that we had afterwards.
 
I just get the vibe that they're channelling socialist constructivsm and futurism with it. Remember, the names chosen by the Soviet Union weren't supposed to sound evil, it's just the association that we had afterwards.

Yeah, possibly. It just sounds too much like the Soviet Union to be purely coincidential. But I guess we will have to wait and see.

Speaking of which, I hate that Firaxis is slipping in their faction updates.

First, Hutama was delayed and we did not get a blog entry on his outlook and philosophy (like we did with all the previous leaders), and now that was nearly two weeks ago and still no sign of Kozlov.
 
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