So I've come to believe that SE/FE is not so hot on emperor...

[futurehermit]

I've been feeling this for awhile now, but have come to believe that farm/specialist economy (FE/SE) is not as good on emperor as it is on the other levels higher and lower.

I believe that on the lower levels it is possible to get the pyramids and run the version of FE/SE that relies on beakers from representation-enhanced scientists to win.

I believe that on the higher levels it is beneficial (maybe often necessary!) to run the version of FE/SE that is based extensively on lightbulbing with great scientists (GSs) and tech trading. This is because the AI techs so fast that when you lightbulb something they don't have, you have the option of trading from amongst numerous techs.

However, on emperor I feel like on the one hand the pyramids are too expensive to gamble on because the AI develops faster than on lower levels yet the lightbulbing approach isn't as effective because the AI generally doesn't tech fast enough that you can trade for what you need at a given point of the game. Also, and perhaps most importantly, the emperor AI doesn't have sufficient $$$ at any given time for you to trade tech for to keep yourself from going broke.

This is at least my experience and I am really struggling to make the FE/SE work on my emperor games.

I have been playing around with a cottage economy (CE) approach instead. Basically, as I keep looking at my games, I keep asking myself: What was the problem, why didn't I win that game? Invariably, the reason is that I was going broke/couldn't get a fast enough tech pace OR I had a good economy but too small of an empire. If I would develop an army, I'd go broke (no/few cottages). If I'd develop my economy (in the sense of staying small enough to not go broke while hoping to lightbulb/trade for techs I need or money) I would stay too small and the AI would get a larger land mass and leverage that to zoom ahead (mostly power-wise).

I know that with a CE you have limited production early on, but after seeing Pete's convincing emperor domination win with Incas using CE I have to say that this, combined with my struggles, kinda makes me feel like emperor is a strange middle ground between two versions of the FE/SE that just doesn't work as well.

I wanted to open this up for some discussion for what other people think. Keep in mind that this is skill-level-specific and I still believe that FE/SE is probably stronger at the other levels, especially the higher ones...

 

[DaveMcW]

I think you'll find it's not so hot on Immortal either.

 

[Codex]

Quick question: Does running an SE really allow for faster GP generation than a GP farm (which you can run in any economy)? If not, then isn't the lightbulbing edge an illusion?

[not trying to reopen all of the SE/CE debates here... just wondering about the GP rate...]

 

[malekithe]

Quick question: Does running an SE really allow for faster GP generation than a GP farm (which you can run in any economy)? If not, then isn't the lightbulbing edge an illusion?

It depends upon the quality of your GP farm and the civics you're running.

 

[Galileo44]

I have often had the same question as Codex, lightbulbing seems to be an advantage that one can leverage regardless of SE or CE.

 

[lilnev]

I usually run what I would call "mostly CE". I plan to generate typically 2 GSs off of library scientists before I get a "proper" GP farm up (as defined by the GL if I can get it, else the NE). The first couple of lightbulbs (especially Philosophy) are huge; the return on investment is too good to pass up. But once the GP farm is running, all other cities go back to cottages or mines. I've only tried the full-on SE (e.g. Caste System, Pacifism and tons of farms) a few times, and I didn't like the results (although perhaps that's because I'm unskilled in its ways).

Beyond the first few GPs, a lightbulb only gets you a fraction of a tech. So the discontinuous nature of SE research vs. the steady beaker production of a CE should become less of a factor as the game progresses. It's more a question of which track you pursue and what your overall rate is.

Regarding level: Certainly it's true that beelining and tech-trading become much more important at higher levels. I haven't played much below Emperor, but in those games I found tech trading to be pretty weak. There may be a good round of Classical era techs, and if you ignore a track for long enough (Feudalism-Guilds-Banking is my classic example) then they'll research it for you, but by and large the AI doesn't keep up well enough to be good trading partners. At Emperor I found trading to be very useful, and jumping ahead with a key lightbulb in the early-mid game can put you in the driver's seat. At Immortal, trading is essential, and even if I get ahead I won't stay there for long. But like I said, I think the "lightbulb effect" wears off pretty quickly, and it becomes more a matter of beeline choice and overall research rate.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Godel]

I've played a few successful FE games on Emperor (warlords).
1. Playing Peter: ran caste system for 70% of the game, cottaged up a city with a couple of gems/gold mines, moved the capital there and ran bureaucracy to finance the rest of the empire. I was quite lucky being able to build the Pyramids from scratch and settled most of the GSs. Space race victory with help of UU. Pre-BetterAI.
2. Strict "no cottages" variant with Freddy, pangaea. One of the best leaders for it because of the philo/org combination.
3. Mehmed with very few cottages. Again, Org is a very handy trait (saves lots of $$ per turn) and beelined to Lib, taking Nat, researched Gunpowder and warred for the rest of the game. Also Pangaea.

But these were quite special circumstances. I doubt the approach would work too well with a continents map (5 civ continent probably an exception) because there aren't enough civs to trade with in the early stages and you can't get enough gold through tech trade to finance the rush to Liberalism. I've tried playing a few FE games with Alex without building the Pyramids on a continents map and find that my economy crashes before I can get to Liberalism.

I have found that a few cottage cities are necessary and often that some cities become hyprid food/cottages simply because I cannot irrigae early in the game.

I agree with your assessment r.e. representation scientists on Monarch. I haven't played many Immortal games yet but my only real successes have been a hybrid approach (early lighbulbing, 1 GS for accademy in a cottage city, this gets me through to Liberalism, a few more lightbulbs for Chem/PP and then its either war or culture all the way).

 

[futurehermit]

^^^yes, i always play continents. i agree that pangaea is easier (overall i would say)...

 

[acidsatyr]

it depends, sharing pangaea with militaristic ais is not my idea of easier.

as far as your whole fe/se argument goes, i don’t agree with it of course, not trying to imply anything but you’re still missing some key elements to let fe/se work. And certainly you’re entitled to your opinion but you can't say that fe/se is not hot on emperor just because some ppl can't get it right; taking into account a last few months, I’ve yet to loose a game on emperor playing without a single cottage.

 

[PMabey]

well there is no doubt that cottages provide more research per turn than a scientist. However lightbulbing techs beats cottaging. Therefore i find it best to cottage any city that doesnt have enough food for specialists. Theres no point having 3-4 cities running scientists that will never produce a great person.

Also when i try pure SE i wonder how you can get scientists up early enough not to fall behind in tech. You need writing, a fairly expensive tech with no cottages to help research, and a library, an expensive building if not creative. The other way is to get CoL but thats even further away

 

[Dirk1302]

IMO FE/SE works fine on emperor. Lately i try cottages on emperor at least in my capital. I tend to build some more cottages depending on the amount of natural commerce resources i have. I get more commerce this way but it definitely costs in the production (whipping) department.

 

[darrelljs]

I guess I'm more of a hybrid economy proponent for all difficulty levels, but I do find that the higher I go the more I focus on food, because it is the safest way to keep up. A lot of it of course depends on the terrain and the leader traits but I would guess if I averaged out my Emperor games over half my cities were food focused. I'm talking flatlands here, they usually either get farms or cottages (the exception being some cottage cities need a few farms to drive growth). I put mines on all hills, and if I have the food to work them I don't really use the whip or run specialists. It is still food based, but more of a standard production city.

Darrell

 

[malekithe]

taking into account a last few months, I’ve yet to loose a game on emperor playing without a single cottage.

And you can likely win on lower difficulties despite any number of various handicaps. For instance, i can win on monarch while automating all workers and a few citys' production queues. That doesn't neccessarily mean it's the best way of playing. Refusing to build a cottage in any game that's going to be going past the rennaissance age just seems sub-optimal. If you find you enjoy playing that way, fine. I may enjoy playing golf without using a driver (and, if I do it enough, I may actually play better without it), but that's obviously not the best way to do things.

 

[Mutineer]

If you read everything I sad about FE, in no cootagess games or discussion treads you will find out that I do belive in transition to more complex mixed economy later in game.
My original suggestion for variant were:
1) No cottages permited to build on start, except on ties which never can be irritated or one destignated commercial city. (Useally capital)

2) After Civil service, no cottages on ties that have fresh water(ajested to rivers or lakes)
3) After republic or printing press cottages permited everywhere.
(idea is that you are going to get democracy soon).
Again, ignore city specialisation that is continue to be my believe on probably most optimum general line of developmetn in civ.

It does not say anything about rate of cottages to non cottages ties. I still think on ealy levels people still build to many cottages. My still belive is that to best city use one need to try to have something like >+8 food/city when working ties you allway want to work.

People continue to call it SE, but that is not correct. What I allways wanted to stress that early one one better to ignore cottages and specialists for the matter in favor of claiming and working special ties. So gem or gold or even wine tie will give instantly more commerce then town.

Specialists not for research thinks themself, but for GP point generation.

In Warlord better efficiency of building research/weath open even more posibilities.

 

[Godel]

Again, ignore city specialisation that is continue to be my believe on probably most optimum general line of developmetn in civ.

Hi Mutineer

Aere you saying that city specialisation is not optimal? Would you be able to expand on this point?

Thanks

 

[Mutineer]

opposite. You need specialisation and in warlord it become even more impotant.
I do not undestand how you can misundestand what I am trying to say.

 

[acidsatyr]

And you can likely win on lower difficulties despite any number of various handicaps. For instance, i can win on monarch while automating all workers and a few citys' production queues. That doesn't neccessarily mean it's the best way of playing. Refusing to build a cottage in any game that's going to be going past the rennaissance age just seems sub-optimal. If you find you enjoy playing that way, fine. I may enjoy playing golf without using a driver (and, if I do it enough, I may actually play better without it), but that's obviously not the best way to do things.

It is very unlikely you'l end up withouth a single cottage even if you don't build a one,simply because AIs builds them. My point was that you can't be against fe/se if you don't understand it completely. On the other hand,
nobody here is talking about what's the ultimately optimal solution to situation. To ME, fe/se is optimal play. Some people have trouble implementing fe/se, for them, more hybrid approach is optimal, or CE. Certainly, there’s no need for me to change my play style if i can’t loose with it, wouldn’t you agree? For optimal play however, you will end up as a hybryd economy in very late game, simply because farming over all those cottage Ais built is not always a smart idea. But in any case, i never end up building cottages early game. never.
But, i still favor economy to be more Fe than ce oriented late game beacause whips and drafts are simply beautiful when you have biology farms. Not even comparable to tiles covered with cottages.
And, having philosophical trait influences all this heavily. I don't think people still realise how powerful it is.

 

[Godel]

opposite. You need specialisation and in warlord it become even more impotant.
I do not undestand how you can misundestand what I am trying to say.

I agree with your view.

Rather than misunderstand I thought I'd just ask you to clarify

 

[druidravi]

There is an additional disadvantage in Emperor with lesser value trade routes and lesser money from capturing cities ( I assume this since I suppose bigger cities captured give you more ) and smaller and lesser developed cities when capturing.

What I do is go total war take out 1 or 2 oppenents with 2,3 strong early production cities capture lesser cities which are close to your capital and raze the rest even good cities while pillaging everything in their capital for more gold and leaving them with only their capital . When their empire has collapsed with only their capital with ridiculous amount of archers left withdraw most of the troops back for lesser supply cost and keep a few troops left near capital accumalating exp and gg points. Then peace finally is declared when you have lvl 4 unit and a GG taking all their techs.

Keep almost all the cottages in captured cities as they will be grown a bit . Your starting production cities will be enough for the warmongering engine running while those captured cities with cottages can fuel your economy . I myself never build a new cottage anywhere till emancipation and even then only in cities which already have lot of cottages.

 

[30+]

First off, my post will be a bit Long winded as I am a bit bored ^^.

Secondly, I have only JUST begun to have any success on Emperor, which is the only level I am currently playing. Finally winning on this level makes me happy, lol. So I am total noob.

Lately I've been doing something close to what Mutineer described and begin with lightbulbing and switch to cottages once democracy comes into play.

Basically run farm/slave/whip with one fully mined production monster somewhere with tech path basics > writing > Alph (trade +sue from first war all techs I can get, including construction and currency as soon as I can get them.....might research construction self if no one has, as often they don't, even after I get Philo) > Lit (GL) > Drama > Pop Philo > COL > CS.

Of course I'm running Paficisim/Caste and Hereditary/Bur. I build up my 2nd war army right before I make the switch so I can concentrate on GPP immediately. Will either demand $$ or sell techs for $$ when needed.

Normally hit Liberalism between 400AD and 600AD and sometimes a little slower if I couldnt get a few needed techs within a reasonable time earlier, such as construction and currency. I will usually have between 6-8 cities at this time.....which is when I switch back to slavery and whip in all my courthouses and any other needed buildings for Happy/Health bonuses. I like to get my universities out of the way too.

I will normally pick Nationalism as my free tech so that while I am rebuilding empire I can finish researching Constitution and eventually run Rep. I then switch back to Caste/Bur or Caste/Nationhood depending on city strengths. I then go for gunpowder > grenadiers > cannon (or sometimes stick to Trebs cause cost alot of research to hit cannons). Then I begin researching Democracy and cottage up the non production cities which have all key buildings. I will still leave ONE all Farm city because I will invariably from time to time switch civics here and there to maximize either draft/Gp.

I do try to stay in slavery more however (but there are times that war warrines gets you cause you don't have emancipation, so then I run that)....it just makes it much easier to whip new buildings needed for captured cities. Of course once Democracy comes in Free speech will be ran.

So Just as I switch out of Caste system earlier to build needed structures, I do the same thing with each new war and new founding area. Of course, there comes a point in time where it makes no since to keep making cottages because the game will be ending sooner rather than later and they have no chance to mature (although if you were financial the +3 on a +2 plot could be a good argument to continue doing so). When I don't think there is enough time to mature a cottage, I'm normally in State Property anways, so I will just workshop everything up and set production build research or build gold.

Don't get me wrong, this is only ONE variation of playing style that I use. I also use a FE/SE continuous and a CE. Im still new ^^, and I try lots of different techniques so I can use the right ones under the right cicrumstances.

I am still wondering in my own head which style or combination is the BEST, if such a thing exist. I find light bulbing to be sexy ^^. But I find industrial age cottage economies sexy too o_O. MMMMmmm... if I have a 20 pop city with 20 cottages with non financial and 10 of those tiles are touching river (lol), then 20x7 = 140 base commerce + 10 extra from river = 150 commerce. If i have an academy and library and university I get 300 beakers at 100% slider (good luck!). So in reality I will run slider from 50-70% most of time, SOOOOO, I'll just say 60% which equals 180 beakers (don't you love this game!??). Now I have a 20 pop city, while running Caste and Repres and have biology. I have 10 specialist and and brining in 60 raw beakers. Double that up as with the cottage scenario and I have 120 beakers.

It seems like I get more money from the cottages!! But wait, How long does it take for those cottages to mature?? Just because one city is outproducting a 10 specialist city doesnt mean subsequent 20 pop CE cities will. It takes alot of time to grow cottages to TOWNS, + I have no versatility of the whip/draft. But wait, if you were playing pure cottage from the beginning, you would easily have 3 cities with almost fully matured TOWNS anyways, therefore making it realatively easy for you to hit the cottage limit with full TOWNS! Plus I can get hammers from universal sufferage!

O??? I get the whip/draft from mine. True, but then you lose out continuos research. CE starts with more beaker potential in the first place so when you draft/whip you fall farther behind. But the CE, unlike the SE/FE will only have the potential of 3 - 5 cities with that were started early with all cottages to truly have a signifcant advantage. And the SE/FE with biology/Rep/Caste can turn almost any land into 100 raw beaker city in a VERY VERY short time.

Lol. And the argument can continue forever. As for me............

I LIKE THEM BOTH......whether extensively SE/FE or CE, or a hybrid of some sort. Of course, my opinion my change tomorrow ^^.