So should your first caravans be for internal or external trade?

[SicklyAlbatross]

Just watched Polycast ep. 178 and it's mentioned that early trade routes are the answer for the lack of gold in the early game.

My reasoning was that if you use your early caravans for moving food you can get your satellite cities up and running very quickly. The quicker that they become populated and with the right buildings, then the quicker you're getting payed back for the tech and culture costs, earn money through roads and actually work your own gold tiles. It's also much, much easier to protect internal routes, I've had caravans plundered by barbs inside the AI territory that I could do nothing about.

So what am I missing?

 

[Verified_Confection_Being]

It depends on the situation and what you are focusing on. You can play out the early game in so many different ways these days.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

What to do with the first one, huh? I typically use it to send food to the capital or send it to an important CS if it already desires one, but preferably food. 8+ food by cargo in the capital will make it very big soon, and as it gets bigger, you get more gold, production and science, especially if you took Monarchy.

 

[VainoValkea]

Early trade routes produce fairly little gold, so internal ones are often more useful. Depends on the situation, though. With monarchy, internal trade routes can be very profitable too!

 

[Matthew.]

Thing is, there are gold tiles available, but your auto-govern dude running your city won't naturally work a 1food/1hammer/3gold plantation, since it stifles that essential early-game growth. Using an internal trade route and manually working those gold tiles results in getting a similar GPT, but also food and hammer.

I'd need to play more games but right now I'd say if your only trading partners are city-states (generally less gold and no science beakers) you are probably better off with internal and work those gold tiles inside your empire. A comparison of trade routes with other civilizations I think would be more difficult to evaluate.

 

[Lyoncet]

Way too many variables to be able to give a cut-and-dry answer. But another thing to remember is that especially on higher difficulties, a big chunk of your early beakers will likely come from trade. You can easily get 4 BPT on immortal. While that's chump change later, that may be 25-30% of your early domestic science output. It also makes going early caravan really pay off since on high difficulties you need to be VERY deliberate about what you build and when.

 

[SicklyAlbatross]

What to do with the first one, huh? I typically use it to send food to the capital or send it to an important CS if it already desires one, but preferably food. 8+ food by cargo in the capital will make it very big soon, and as it gets bigger, you get more gold, production and science, especially if you took Monarchy.

That got me thinking, but I don't really use tradition so I'm not sure. Does anyone know if the gold boost from monarchy affects the income from an external trade route? External trade routes would be a lot more appealing with a larger early pay-off. Although there's already a massive amount of gold in the tradition tree, does it really need more...?

I still think internal is the way to go for liberty though. Spitting out those cities rapidly can cost you a lot and a bunch of failing cities can drag you under, internal routes let's liberty do what it does best.

 

[SicklyAlbatross]

Way too many variables to be able to give a cut-and-dry answer. But another thing to remember is that especially on higher difficulties, a big chunk of your early beakers will likely come from trade. You can easily get 4 BPT on immortal. While that's chump change later, that may be 25-30% of your early domestic science output. It also makes going early caravan really pay off since on high difficulties you need to be VERY deliberate about what you build and when.

But isn't the extra pop' going to be an investment in more science? In BNW it definitely feels like I can invest more and see the benefits later on, where as before it felt like I needed -everything- now otherwise I'd be steam-rolled. It's even allowed me to comfortably move up to immortal.

 

[Thuellai]

But isn't the extra pop' going to be an investment in more science? In BNW it definitely feels like I can invest more and see the benefits later on, where as before it felt like I needed -everything- now otherwise I'd be steam-rolled. It's even allowed me to comfortably move up to immortal.

Oh yeah

Like he said, it's not cut and dry - two coastal cities sending a cargo ship back and forth can result in explosive food growth that can be a big bonus to getting tall as fast as your happiness can handle.

On the other hand, getting those four extra beakers early in can be a big deal too, if you do it early enough. And gold is always nice.

With Carthage I usually go for external trade routes, just because Quinqueremes make it easy to clear out naval barbs and free Harbors means you have access to longer (and thus more profitable) routes.

 

[Byzantine Bomb]

If I'm hurting for one, an external route is better. Building an early offensive army won't bleed your coffers if your trade routes are giving you money. But if you find yourself surrounded by city states or no one harmful, maybe boosting some small settlements is best.

 

[Pythakoreas]

I usually get these trade routes plundered so I carry food with it.

Moderator Action: *snip* spoiler spam removed.

 

[Roxlimn]

The main question is how many gold tiles you have in the first place. Without an early city target, early trade routes are almost always better internal as you can protect it better and you need the food more - presuming you already have Granaries, of course.

Some things change that. High BPT, increased range, closer AI city targets, and so on. Arabia and Carthage get range and trade bonuses that can make trade routing better if you can reach an AI capital. You may also need TRs to improve relations with an iffy and aggressive AI.

 

[Vidszhite]

Way too many variables to be able to give a cut-and-dry answer. But another thing to remember is that especially on higher difficulties, a big chunk of your early beakers will likely come from trade. You can easily get 4 BPT on immortal. While that's chump change later, that may be 25-30% of your early domestic science output. It also makes going early caravan really pay off since on high difficulties you need to be VERY deliberate about what you build and when.

Aye, on Immo/Diety, you'll get 4 BPT per trade route, so going animal husbandry followed by quick sailing for 2 Caravans can be just as good as getting a Nat College. Easily 25-33% of your early science will come this way.

 

[MarshalN]

Aye, on Immo/Diety, you'll get 4 BPT per trade route, so going animal husbandry followed by quick sailing for 2 Caravans can be just as good as getting a Nat College. Easily 25-33% of your early science will come this way.

Especially if the AI sends one your way as well. I've gotten a total of 6 beakers from trade routes out of the total of maybe 32 I was producing. That's quite a significant boost and cannot be overlooked.

When there's 2 or more beakers to be had, I almost always go for it, unless I have a citystate that wants a trade route, or I am trying to finish a wonder and want to send hammers that way, but that usually won't be the first caravan.

 

[Vidszhite]

But isn't the extra pop' going to be an investment in more science? In BNW it definitely feels like I can invest more and see the benefits later on, where as before it felt like I needed -everything- now otherwise I'd be steam-rolled. It's even allowed me to comfortably move up to immortal.

Depends on what Social Tree you went first. If you went Tradition, more pop IS more gold, but if you went Liberty, more pop can tip your unhappiness over the edge if you have 3 cities, and you'll be losing gold for sure without trade routes, so you can't afford internal trade routes.

 

[Maxym]

I usually get these trade routes plundered so I carry food with it.

Moderator Action: *snip* spoiler spam removed.

So "many" buttons. I couldn't stop

 

[Luziadus]

I usually get these trade routes plundered so I carry food with it.

Moderator Action: *snip* spoiler spam removed.

Why you put so much buttons?

 

[Pythakoreas]

Why you put so much buttons?

I just wish my caravans could hide their money and stuff "deep inside" so they can't get plundered

 

[elijahfire]

Just watched Polycast ep. 178 and it's mentioned that early trade routes are the answer for the lack of gold in the early game.

My reasoning was that if you use your early caravans for moving food you can get your satellite cities up and running very quickly. The quicker that they become populated and with the right buildings, then the quicker you're getting payed back for the tech and culture costs, earn money through roads and actually work your own gold tiles. It's also much, much easier to protect internal routes, I've had caravans plundered by barbs inside the AI territory that I could do nothing about.

So what am I missing?

If you want to become allies with a nearby civ early on then external, if you get a workshop or granary up early then internal.

 

[elijahfire]

Thing is, there are gold tiles available, but your auto-govern dude running your city won't naturally work a 1food/1hammer/3gold plantation, since it stifles that essential early-game growth. Using an internal trade route and manually working those gold tiles results in getting a similar GPT, but also food and hammer.

I'd need to play more games but right now I'd say if your only trading partners are city-states (generally less gold and no science beakers) you are probably better off with internal and work those gold tiles inside your empire. A comparison of trade routes with other civilizations I think would be more difficult to evaluate.

Good point.