Social Policy updates in G&K?

Policies are one of the most promising, yet least polished part of the vanilla game. I hope they give some long, hard thought to tweaking and extending policies so they are truly important to game outcome.
Assuming, of course, they can teach the AI to use them in some useful way.
 
Come on, I know that. I was just giving Mad a hard time. :)

and some of us know how to spell, while others pretend to use 'english'. :p

I'm pretty sure the existence of city-states has no bearing ont he AI's likelihood of choosing Patronage, unfortunately. :(

[snip].

oddly, the AI seems to be just smart enough to know that 'no CS = no Patronage'.

the rest is rather garbage, but I doubt you've spent much time doing Culture VCs. Mathematically, Piety (vanilla) is a requirement for a culture VC. It's not just the free SP, but the boosts contained within the Piety tree that make it better for that VC.
 
This isn't related to obvious Religion tie ins (especally with Piety), but I'd hope they:

Liberty: Move the Golden Age to the finisher. Remove the free Great Person. This should better focus this tree to wide empires instead of the current highly useful for tall empires in addition to wide ones.

Tradition: Move the current benefit of Legalism to a policy that doesn't have sub policies under it. This would allow adopting the second level policies currently blocked by it faster.
A possible alternative would be having it always grant 4 Temples even if you don't yet have the tech for it (or the monuments/monasteries).

Order: Open with Renanance era instead of Industrial era. That would allow more time for this tree to work rather than completing it after your done constructing the last buildings.

Autocracy: Open with Midevil era instead of Industrial era. This would also allow more time for this tree to help with conquests.

Rationalism: The main reason this is over powered is because RAs are. So if they nerf RAs (which I think they are planning on doing by requiring a DOF first), no changes needed.

Commerce: Make roads free with this policy instead of half price. Continue to have Rail at half price. Having roads be completely free would be a major cash saver on the land maps.

No Honor fixing? Liberty would still be 90% picked for first in multiplayer games, its the free worker and settler that is the problem with the policy that makes it the most powerful and most picked up. Then you can add on the free great person choice. Rationalism isn't going to be fixed by nerfing research agreements because first of all, there is no DoF in multiplayer between players. As soon as you have the required tech you can trade agreements.
 
Autocracy also gets a buff with an extended Total War policy. I believe it is now 25% bonus for 50 turns.
 
the rest is rather garbage, but I doubt you've spent much time doing Culture VCs. Mathematically, Piety (vanilla) is a requirement for a culture VC. It's not just the free SP, but the boosts contained within the Piety tree that make it better for that VC.

I've done plenty of Culture VCs, and know how powerful it is for those wins. That doesn't make it well-designed. I think I was plenty clear that I knew that based on repeatedly saying that it was only good when you needed to get as many policies as possible (if it wasn't clear, apologies). And I never claimed it was just a free SP either, but that too many of the bonuses are just "it's easier to get other SPs." There's the opener (+15% construction speed on culture buildings = just more culture), Mandate of Heaven (just more culture), Reformation (GA is nice, but otherwise just more culture), Theocracy (baaaaaaaaad, IMO, and only does anything if you're building lots of culture buildings), Free Religion (just more culture, but at least it's also a free pick), and the finisher (just more culture, or rather, lower policy cost plus extra culture). The only three parts of the tree that do something other than make it easier to get policies down the line are Theocracy (again, baaaaaaaaad), Reformation (half of which is just about getting more culture anyways) and Organized Religion, which is actually pretty good.

IMO, it would be fine if the tree were good for culture-focused empires. It would even be fine, although probably still (but less) situational if the picks actually paid for themselves in culture over the course of the game – which I'm almost certain they don't. I like sometimes playing, say, a war-oriented game in which I prioritize culture to get lots of good policies, instead of going just tech + hammers to get lots of good units. And if the tree were built with more policies like Organized Religion, which rewards you for getting lots of culture in a way that doesn't just make it easier to get another policy down the road, that would be terrific while still being good for cultue wins, as it should be. But making it so narrowly focused, with most of its policies built so nobody will get any benefit from over taking another set of policies unless their goal is literally to click on as many policy buttons as possible to win, shouldn't exist.

As for being necessary to a Culture win, well, yeah. It is. Which is another design flaw. In a game like Civ, there should be no instance of "you NEED to take this specific route or you will LOSE." Ever. For any type of win. Period. So it's worthless in most games, and completely necessary in the few others. Big. Problem. Hate to harp on this point, but 4x games are about letting the player make choices. When a choice like the Piety tree comes up, there's no choice. It's already been made. Are you going culture, take it, or (I haven't don't the math on this, but it sounds like other have) you will never be able to win. If you're not going culture, then never take it because you'll always come out behind on actual actionable policies. Maybe dabble in it for Organized Religion if you can't get a happiness boost somewhere else, but most of the policies are literally the worst things you could possibly do with your culture.

Let me reiterate since it apparently got lost earlier on: that doesn't mean I think it's not a good tree. But it's either worthless or indispensable, which makes it poorly designed. Culture wins shouldn't need any one tree to be viable. Wonders like Hermitage or Cristo Redentor are one thing, since they're not taking the place of something else you could be doing unless you're desperately short on hammers. And you don't need to get every culture wonder out there to win culture, and more importantly, people playing for other types of wins can get some use out of some of the culture buildings because they're converting hammers into culture, not culture into less culture, which is the crux of the issue with Piety (again, unless you just need to hit that threshold of having clicked 30 different policies).

If those thoughts are "quite garbage," please feel free to point out how. But if your defense is just based based off of the fact that it's fine for a tree to be necessary for one victory condition and next-to-worthless for all others (again, aside from Organized Religion), I'd say that my point is very definitely not garbage. IMO, that kind of design diminishes a 4x game by removing the player choice element which is integral both to the core idea of the series (giving the player authority over how to run their empire) and replay value (by differentiating playthroughs even of the same type).

Final thought: I know it's likely that someone will say something like "Well for a science win you need libraries." Which is true. But it's also true that libraries 1) are good for all win conditions, 2) don't restrict the number of buildings you can build, unlike Social Policies, which consume a very scarce resource, and 3) most importantly, turn hammers into beakers, which is fundamentally different from, again turning culture into less culture (which, again I will reiterate for the sake of clarity is good but only if you're trying to click 30 policies). All those things, and the last in particular, make other important-to-necessary techs/buildings/whatevers fine.

TL;DR: Nothing as scarce as SPs should be necessary for one win and garbage for all others; Piety would be better off giving bonuses for focusing on culture instead of turning culture into less culture (for example, more policies along the lines of Organized Religion or Theocracy).
 
I agree with joncnunn, though I would add more benefits to Commerce. I dream of day where the decision to go Tradition/Liberty/Honor (see MadDjinn, I spelled that right ;) ) would be a hard one to make in most games/maps. I also hope that Piety remains a cultural SP or that another SP picks up their early boni. And perhaps I would add one more choose one or the other SP but not both.
(Emphasis mine.)

Well...if we're ribbing each other about spelling on the internet...

It's "bonuses". Really, it is. :p

~R~
 
Here are the policy changes we've glimpsed on screenshots and videos so far. I'm doing this list off the top of my head and there might be some mistakes, so please correct me if I forgot something or got something wrong.

Tradition
No known changes, but there's speculation based on two screenshots that the finisher now might give a free Great Person.

Piety
Opener: Double production speed for Shrines and Temples
Finisher: +3 :c5gold: and +3 :c5culture: for Holy Sites and -20% faith cost for everything that's purchased with faith.

Rationalism
Finisher: Can buy Great Scientists with faith

Freedom
Moved to Industrial Era
Finisher: Can buy Great Artists with faith

Autocracy
Opener: 20% reduced unit maintenance and can pillage culture from conquered cities (every time you conquer a city you gain 10% of all culture points this city has generated so far).
Finisher: 25% combat bonus for the next 50 turns.
Autocracy also enables you to buy Great Generals and Admirals with faith, but I can't remember if it's part of the opener, finisher, or a specific policy in the tree

Order
Finisher: The old finisher doubled (+2 everything in all cities).
Order also enables you to buy Great Engineers with faith. I'm not sure if it's part of the opener, finisher, or a policy.
 
They also have to be really careful when they balance social policies against the benefits of religious beliefs because they are pretty similar to each other.

As it seems to be now, you have to decide whether you want to focus on religion or culture and I hope that one choice isn't superior to the other under all circumstances.
 

There's two problems right now:
-if one SP tree gave you back more culture than it requires to be unlocked, you'd destroy the cultural VC; that's why Piety gives you back somewhat little culture.
-SP costs increase nearly quadratically, IIRC, so later SPs cost you too much compared to the extra culture given by Piety, that's why unless you are going for a cultural VC, there's little reason to get Piety.

If you want Piety to give bonuses to cultural empires other than culture, the cultural VC has to be revised so that it can compete with the other VCs. Maybe it has been revised for GnK, maybe it hasn't (but I sure hope it has).

But I very much agree with what you wrote.

Well...if we're ribbing each other about spelling on the internet...

Bring it on :p

Autocracy
Opener: 20% reduced unit maintenance and can pillage culture from conquered cities (every time you conquer a city you gain 10% of all culture points this city has generated so far).

There's a mistake. When you capture a city, you gain the equivalent of 10 turns of culture production from that city (Whether 10 times the culture production of the city before or after the plunder is, AFAIK, unknown).
 
My problem with Piety is not only that it is useless for any other VC than cultural, but that it prevents the player from choosing Rationalism.

Rationalism is not only powerful because of the specific benefits. It is powerful because the tech tree has always been the jugular in Civ games, back to Civ II at least (when I started playing). They have attempted to address this with features such as promotions, but it is still the jugular and always will be. Any policy tree that is as powerful as Rationalism and is so beneficial to this jugular should always be taken. It is more powerful than any other policy tree.

Preventing the player from taking Rationalism makes Piety next to worthless (IMO), and makes me reluctant to go for the cultural VC.
 
There's two problems right now:
-if one SP tree gave you back more culture than it requires to be unlocked, you'd destroy the cultural VC; that's why Piety gives you back somewhat little culture.
-SP costs increase nearly quadratically, IIRC, so later SPs cost you too much compared to the extra culture given by Piety, that's why unless you are going for a cultural VC, there's little reason to get Piety.

If you want Piety to give bonuses to cultural empires other than culture, the cultural VC has to be revised so that it can compete with the other VCs. Maybe it has been revised for GnK, maybe it hasn't (but I sure hope it has).

But I very much agree with what you wrote.

Bolded for great justice. From the looks of it (TY GoodSarmatian), the focus will be changed to dovetail between faith and culture, with bonuses that do more that just give you culture back. Which is a fine way of doing things assuming they also found ways to adjust culture wins so they don't become more difficult relative to the others in G&K.
 
My problem with Piety is not only that it is useless for any other VC than cultural, but that it prevents the player from choosing Rationalism.

I've always found Piety very useful. More happiness = more golden ages.
I'm curious as to how else its been changed. I still cant believe they actually
buffed order. Autocracy still seems weak and one dimensional. Freedom seems
the same as ever. Honestly I'm not a fan of any of the late policies.
 
The Autocracy opener really interests me. I like trying to do weird culture games where I'm a warmonger. Instead of focusing on wonder spam, I settle only a few cities and try to mass puppet much of the world. :P
 
I've always found Piety very useful. More happiness = more golden ages.
I'm curious as to how else its been changed. I still cant believe they actually
buffed order. Autocracy still seems weak and one dimensional. Freedom seems
the same as ever. Honestly I'm not a fan of any of the late policies.

You can get more happiness from Rationalism, too.
 
Here are the policy changes we've glimpsed on screenshots and videos so far. I'm doing this list off the top of my head and there might be some mistakes, so please correct me if I forgot something or got something wrong.

Tradition
No known changes, but there's speculation based on two screenshots that the finisher now might give a free Great Person.

Piety
Opener: Double production speed for Shrines and Temples
Finisher: +3 :c5gold: and +3 :c5culture: for Holy Sites and -20% faith cost for everything that's purchased with faith.

Rationalism
Finisher: Can buy Great Scientists with faith

Freedom
Moved to Industrial Era
Finisher: Can buy Great Artists with faith

Autocracy
Opener: 20% reduced unit maintenance and can pillage culture from conquered cities (every time you conquer a city you gain 10% of all culture points this city has generated so far).
Finisher: 25% combat bonus for the next 50 turns.
Autocracy also enables you to buy Great Generals and Admirals with faith, but I can't remember if it's part of the opener, finisher, or a specific policy in the tree

Order
Finisher: The old finisher doubled (+2 everything in all cities).
Order also enables you to buy Great Engineers with faith. I'm not sure if it's part of the opener, finisher, or a policy.

If they've indeed added a great person as a finisher to Tradition without making other changes to either that tree or Liberty, all they've done is add Tradition to the list of social trees always taken in every game. (People would take BOTH the free Liberty Great Person AND the free Tradition Great Person and not just one.)

That's a major nerf for Freedom (delaying the opener to Industrial); I'm not sure it will still be useful even in a cultural game with already having 3 1/2 trees before that era opens.
 
That would be my guess too, but we are never safe from "undocumented features", and this seems to be a subtle enough distinction to warrant one.
 
That would be my guess too, but we are never safe from "undocumented features", and this seems to be a subtle enough distinction to warrant one.

true. I don't think the 'extra gold' when you took down an Egyptian city with a burial tomb worked when Civ 5 came out. My guess is this mechanic will kick in at the same trigger point as that one.
 
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