Solution Idea: Accumulative Resources

[Galacticat42]

I know that accumulative resources such as Gold, Beakers, Culture, Health, etc. can become out of whack with but a single integer. And so, I am suggesting to the DLL team to install a complex filter that centralizes income of all sorts into one mainstream modifier via logarithmic algorithm.

Last week I was helping a fellow modder try and find an armor value modifier to streamline mob difficulties into several sections for a new battle overhaul mod for Skyrim. The result I came upon was a logarithmic algorithm that, when put in multiple variables, spit out exactly what was wanted. Now, what does this have to do with C2C you might ask? Well, if we apply this algorithm into Civ, it will maintain the income said resources and allow for a more streamlined affect that is sought after for each era.

A direct copy and paste from my post on TheNexusForums:

e = 2.718; a mathematical constant
graphInverter = 2; when multiplied by 2, e inverts the graph.
graphClimbRate = 75; A perfect balance between no armor, light armor, heavy armor, and big bad bosses
horAsymptote = 100; disallows those big bad bosses from being 100% immune to any and all damage by default
armorAbsorbPercent = pow((e*graphInverter),(-1*sqrt(graphClimbRate/armorRating)))*horAsymptote;

What this code does, is takes in the specific value (In this case armorRating) and spits out a percentage from 0 to 100 without going over those values. This could effectively cause any gold income before gold is discovered non-existent. And can henceforth regulate by percentage all incomes accordingly.

This algorithm can force an abundance of unhealthiness or a complete drought of beakers. If used correctly, I believe this algorithm can fix most imbalances with resource incomes albeit good or bad.

 

[rightfuture]

I know that accumulative resources such as Gold, Beakers, Culture, Health, etc. can become out of whack with but a single integer. And so, I am suggesting to the DLL team to install a complex filter that centralizes income of all sorts into one mainstream modifier via logarithmic algorithm.

Last week I was helping a fellow modder try and find an armor value modifier to streamline mob difficulties into several sections for a new battle overhaul mod for Skyrim. The result I came upon was a logarithmic algorithm that, when put in multiple variables, spit out exactly what was wanted. Now, what does this have to do with C2C you might ask? Well, if we apply this algorithm into Civ, it will maintain the income said resources and allow for a more streamlined affect that is sought after for each era.

...

This algorithm can force an abundance of unhealthiness or a complete drought of beakers. If used correctly, I believe this algorithm can fix most imbalances with resource incomes albeit good or bad.

Wow, Civ Fuehrer
I have to agree that Skyrim, like FFH could inspire some useful features for C2C.
The code of these mods could be further discussed for feature implementation.

I have 2 ideas for everyone to consider:

1. In response to Accumulative Resources: I do think this is a great idea, but it can present issues.

I personally think that this should be combined with quantitative resources into an optional module with the default setting being the less frustrating one for new players or people who dislike having as realistic resource limitations and activity.

Playing with/without resource limits could easily split/divide players into a 2 groups (happy/unhappy) . Like with wonders and city expansion limits, I think that style of gameplay should be included, but optional.
I can see myself actually playing both ways until I settled on a preference.


2. Useful Skyrim ideas and possible implementation inspiration:

Here are a few additional ideas to add to the conversation:
The few mods that come to mind are

SkyTest -Realistic Animals and Predators
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/10175

Realistic Animal Behaviour
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/10825

Project Reality - Climates Of Tamriel - Weather - Lighting
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/17802

Adventurers and Travelers
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/10527
introducing more simple random behavior outside 'You' (player) vs 'Them' (AI civs) to enhance the "living world" aspect of immersion into C2C.

More NPCs in the Wild
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/19892

Interesting NPCs
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/8429

SIM - Skyrim npc Immersion Mod
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/8228

Bandit Raids
http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/17622

I don't know if you were referencing this next mod suggestion, but some light war scripting and random variation could spice up AI warfare strategy and behavior, like this mod:

Wars in Skyrim (currently being rewritten)
http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/691664-project-wars-in-skyrim-v/
adjusts all sorts of living world behavior:
-Wild Life ---> this esp will contain patrol systems for packs of animals, predator/prey systems and alpha male systems

Here's a great article of what ideas could be potentially be useful to C2C.
http://techland.time.com/2012/03/01...ar/slide/wars-in-skyrim-iv/#wars-in-skyrim-iv

'Skyrim’s default enemy behavior not doing it for you? Wars in Skyrim IV aims to
remedy that by increasing the interactive complexity of countryside critters. Imagine if enemies could occasionally flock, banding together as they bump into each other, then coming after you. Or creatures that attack your enemies, then turn on you as soon as they’re finished. Or NPCs fending off random attacks from creatures (that aren’t story-scripted). Or new creatures like tundra trolls, bone golems, giant rock crabs and my personal favorite: werewolf-vampires. Or stop imagining and download Wars in Skyrim IV, which adds all that and more.' (from the article)

This could be useful for both animal behavior and grouped AI unit strategy (actions/reactions) in C2C.

There really should be some expanded discussion on this. There are a few really good ideas here.
(Skyrim has been the only game in the last 5 years, other than ROM, AND, EXTRA, and C2C of course, that has been deep and fun enough to hold my attention for more than a few months). I still like Skyrim, but C2C will evolve much further.

Thanks for opening up this up for discussion, Civ Fuehrer!
I hope others feel the same.

 

[ls612]

I know that accumulative resources such as Gold, Beakers, Culture, Health, etc. can become out of whack with but a single integer. And so, I am suggesting to the DLL team to install a complex filter that centralizes income of all sorts into one mainstream modifier via logarithmic algorithm.

Last week I was helping a fellow modder try and find an armor value modifier to streamline mob difficulties into several sections for a new battle overhaul mod for Skyrim. The result I came upon was a logarithmic algorithm that, when put in multiple variables, spit out exactly what was wanted. Now, what does this have to do with C2C you might ask? Well, if we apply this algorithm into Civ, it will maintain the income said resources and allow for a more streamlined affect that is sought after for each era.

A direct copy and paste from my post on TheNexusForums:

e = 2.718; a mathematical constant
graphInverter = 2; when multiplied by 2, e inverts the graph.
graphClimbRate = 75; A perfect balance between no armor, light armor, heavy armor, and big bad bosses
horAsymptote = 100; disallows those big bad bosses from being 100% immune to any and all damage by default
armorAbsorbPercent = pow((e*graphInverter),(-1*sqrt(graphClimbRate/armorRating)))*horAsymptote;

What this code does, is takes in the specific value (In this case armorRating) and spits out a percentage from 0 to 100 without going over those values. This could effectively cause any gold income before gold is discovered non-existent. And can henceforth regulate by percentage all incomes accordingly.

This algorithm can force an abundance of unhealthiness or a complete drought of beakers. If used correctly, I believe this algorithm can fix most imbalances with resource incomes albeit good or bad.

This project already has something similar, you might want to contact the owner of that regarding this, but he does dislike C2C, so I don't know what sort of response you'd get.

 

[MaXimillionZero]

So basically you want to apply diminishing returns to all city output?

C2C already suffers too much from diminishing returns due to the amount of +X% bonuses that makes a +10% bonus to trade route income for example feel poitless since you've already got 500% from elsewhere. I really don't like the idea.

And you probably shouldn't use the word resources if you're not actually talking about resources, it makes the post a bit confusing.

 

[Galacticat42]

No, not quite the same as a diminishing return, it's more along the lines of step 1 of an overhaul to slowly scrap the old system that's been plagued with imbalance. This first step - applying the algorithm - should provide a smooth(er) transition between two points of acquiring boni in game.

When the algorithm is in place across the board, step 2 can commence which would be to transfer the focal point of the gross income of all boni (Again, gold, beakers, culture, etc) from the player and what the player builds and what civics are enabled into a more dynamic system that breathes with every year that passes in game. The buildings themselves wouldn't need any changes in the XML, the XML will just be handled differently. The algorithm itself will handle the city's total possible income on a turn-by-turn basis and assigns the player bonuses according to this cap and the buildings within a given city. What's left the player is free to use in the sliders, but the sliders will no longer define a civilization's orientation. I can also think about how this system would make it a LOT easier for the AI to manage themselves as well.

In short, I'm trying to give an outline of an algorithm-based AI that will define what the player and other AI can and cannot do. If you think this will limit what the player can do, you're sorely mistaken as it will give you more options but in a more realistic way. Want to cut down science for gold? You can redirect your tax money from science to the treasury OR you can pass a fee on a building that will generate revenue in exchange for heavy unhappiness and the possibility of your citizens destroying that building to retaliate and cause an uproar. But that's in the long run. On the AI side, their cities will run themselves and give the mainstreamed income for each city size with each additional building. The AI would effectively no longer be suffocating themselves with misused sliders and actually be a force to be reckoned with once again.

With multiple research, multiple construction and a sh*tton of AI that the C2C coding team has made, it'll be possible for the first time to have each building in each city go about their own business and produce what they will with your oversight. Hell, want to run a libertarian government? Go for it. Watch your cities grow before your eyes and only command your nation's armies. The best part about this system, is that when you reach the late Transhuman and Galactic eras, all of your thousands of settlements will be autonomous by nature and not by building one useless thing after another, but rather by having each building build their own thing and will exponentially grow your cities.

The point of this single algorithm is to lay a stable foundation for a host of future AI to plant themselves in to help combat the inevitable unbalancing of content. Through this equation, your game and everything in it would be by default, balanced. In theory.

EDIT:

Imagine a game where your laboratory in city A researches cloning, laboratory in city B researches marine life while your military lab in city A also researches missiles. By default you'd be able to tell what the military lab does, but if you have a high-ruling position in your empire, you can persuade or even force your other laboratories to research other things. Of course for this to work, cities would have to be specialized by other buildings it has and by the tiles surrounding it.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Civ Fuerher (or anyone, I guess), could you include a graph or something to demonstrate what this function does? You've kind of lost me at "Multiplying by 2 inverts the graph."

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Civ Fuehrer

Have you PM'd Koshling and AIAndy about this? The 3 of you together could hash out the feasibility and details to see how well this would work in C2C.

I've seen your work in RoM and AND and if you believe this is a solution to game imbalances then go to them and get the ball rolling.

JosEPh

 

[Galacticat42]

Civ Fuerher (or anyone, I guess), could you include a graph or something to demonstrate what this function does? You've kind of lost me at "Multiplying by 2 inverts the graph."

Put

(e*2)^(-sqrt(75/x))*100

into the google searchbar. Keep in mind that this particular set of variables is designed for an armor rating to absorption percentage conversion. The X axis is the armor rating while the Y Axis is the percentage. The appropriate set of variables for this algorithm to work with C2C have yet to be identified and applied. But the horizontal Asymptote (right now set at 100) is the key to total mainstreaming. Before bartering is discovered, it would be set to 0 and would otherwise be the cap at 100%. It's more of a toggle switch. The '2' doesn't so much invert the graph, but rather makes it 2x compact along the X axis. It inverts in the sense that the single digit part of the graph no long eases forward. The 75 is the speed at which the graph accelerates and can be changed to fit the average slope in more detail than the 2. Last but not least we have x which tells us which part of the graph we are looking at for all the other variables put in.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Okay, I had to zoom out a bunch (until y=100 was visible), but that's clearer. Near x=0, the graph looks like it's taking off to the moon, but it eventually goes horizontal. Thanks.