Solution to "His archer killed my tank" complaints

[CVDon]

You know how workers change when the Age changes. How about adding two new classes of troops: Foot Peasants, and Mounted Peasants. As the Age changes, certain units would change. If you still have a warrior unit in the Middle ages it becomes a peasant unit with pitchfork. During the industrial age it could be a militia unit. During the modern age it would be a partizan unit.

Don't change the stats at all, just the name and picture. A warrior would become a 1 point peasant with pitch fork, then a 1 point militia, then a 1 point partizan. No stronger, just more "appropriate" looking. Worker stats don't change, just the look does.

An archer would be a 3 point partizan, which looks exactly like a 1 point partizan (ex-warrior).
A horse archer would be a 4 point mounted partizan.

Then when a 3 point partizan (ex-archer) kills someone's tank, it makes sense.

 

[Quentin]

Only a warrior sounds significantly more badass than a peasant, having a peasant kill a tank would be worse than a warrior doing so IMHO.

 

[Psyringe]

Interesting idea, but too much effort to implement it for too little gain imho.

It's easier to make a mod which rescales the strengths of the units. Of course, some people will then complain how they don't have the slightest chance to defend with their longbowmen against the AI's riflemen invasion force. ("unfair!" - "Stupid design, as soon as you fall back a little in tech, you're screwed!" - "This game' combat is totally broken!" etc.)

 

[MRM]

I like the idea but it will be difficult to find a modern version for each ancient or medivian unit - and I guess some people will then complain that they are confused by the changing images ...

 

[Goombaz]

Interesting idea, but too much effort to implement it for too little gain imho.

It's easier to make a mod which rescales the strengths of the units. Of course, some people will then complain how they don't have the slightest chance to defend with their longbowmen against the AI's riflemen invasion force. ("unfair!" - "Stupid design, as soon as you fall back a little in tech, you're screwed!" - "This game' combat is totally broken!" etc.)

Yeah, how *DARE* people complain about auto-losing a battle

Why give the troops stats if you are going to make auto-loss rules?

 

[CVDon]

I like the idea but it will be difficult to find a modern version for each ancient or medivian unit ...

Not a modern version for EACH ancient or medieval unit. A single type of unit to represent ALL obsolete units. My "partizan" looks like your "partizan" (as my fighter looks like your fighter) but my color scheme is red and yours is blue.

You could have three partizan units standing next to each other and they all look the same.

A Partizan with a full strength of 1 used to be a warrior
A Partizan with a full strength of 3 used to be an archer
A Partizan with a full strength of 5 used to be an axman

The computer will continue to treat the 5 point unit as an Axman when moving and calculating combat results, but it will LOOK different to the player.

 

[Quantum7]

This doesn't solve the problem as some civ's may still be in the middle ages.

For your own civ a elegant solution may be that the military upkeep ('budget') is automatically used for upgrading. That would make more sense. Which modern country is still using archers for warfare right now i.e.? Some may still use tanks 20-30 years old, but that's pretty much the limit before they *must* get upgraded.

This mechanism would automatically mean you end up with sufficiently advanced units; depending on whatever techs are available. And it might even limit your tech speed a bit; because you have to balance between learning new techs and upgrading all of your units .

 

[MRM]

This doesn't solve the problem as some civ's may still be in the middle ages.

Yes - but this situation did not reflect reality as well - I mean where do you have a situation where a modern army strikes a medivean army with archers ?

Even in a totally backwarded third world country they have at least some assult rifles like AK 47 and granats even if they cannot afford tanks or planes ...

So upgrading the image when the tech leader advance to modern age is IMO somehow realistic ...

 

[Quantum7]

Yes - but this situation did not reflect reality as well - I mean where do you have a situation where a modern army strikes a medivean army with archers ?

Even in a totally backwarded third world country they have at least some assult rifles like AK 47 and granats even if they cannot afford tanks or planes ...

So upgrading the image when the tech leader advance to modern age is IMO somehow realistic ...

Hmmm. True. That situation would only occur for civilizations that don't have any contact with other civilizations. In Civ that situation is non-existant after astronomy (maybe if they're running mercantilism).

Upgrading the image remains a 'patch' / non-solution though. I'd rather see a mechanism that eliminates the situation from occurring so much. In example the costs of new technologies could probably be exponentially lower for civilizations that set out to discover them last. (this would be realistic as they can get traded all kinds of books / examples about how to make those weapons).

 

[kung-fu-stu]

Personally, I'd like to see upgrade costs diminish over time. On the turn you discover Feudalism it costs you loads to upgrade your archers to longbowmen. But as time passes, this upgrade cost should reduce.
I'd go as far as to say that unit production should follow a similar pattern. You first 10 units (of a specific type) cost 25% over basic hammer cost, for the next 10 you're changed standard rate but after that they're cheaper to produce (represents economy of scale / you've learnt how to make them for less).

 

[CVDon]

This sort of thing did happen from time to time.

European colonists with firelocks versus American Indians with stone knives and bows.

German Panzers versus Polish Lancers.

Italian tanks versus Ethiopians with spears.

I am not concerned with conflict between Civs with vastly different tech levels. I was thinking along the lines of Civs that are building riflemen while leaving warriors and archers in garrison someplace.

Has anyone really played a game where you were building tanks and an enemy Civ is still building archers?

 

[Evie]

European colonists with firelocks versus American Indians with stone knives and bows.

By the time they started seriously fighting colonists (as opposed to conquistador), the American Indians generally had acquired firearms (from trade) as well. The Iroquois (to name but them) used them rather effectively. (Also, the American Indians, though they eventually lost, kicked colonists around rather effectively for a long time)

German Panzers versus Polish Lancers.

German panzers versus polish infantry, really. All they used their horses for was transportation. The whole "cavalry charge against tanks" thing is a historical myth.

Italian tanks versus Ethiopians with spears.

IIRC, the Ethiopians had managed to acquire riffles. (They also won a few battles).

 

[Gato Loco]

1) Change the upgrade costs to zero. That way everyone will always upgrade every unit as soon as they get the proper tech, and you'll never find warriors hanging around in 2000AD. Though to be fair the AI usually upgrades everything anyway. Unfortunately, this would be ripe for exploitation if you build cheap warriors for the sole purpose of upgrading to muskets.

2) Introduce a tech spreading model where every civ has the "great library" effect from previous civ games. Perhaps make it a percent chance every turn so the first civs to discover a new tech get a small window of opportunity where they have a monopoly.

3) Remove strategic resources as a requirement to build certain units. Instead make the resources simply give a production bonus for those units.

Implementing these ideas will mean that spearmen and tanks (or any units with a serious technology gap) will hardly ever face one another, thus making all the complaints moot. We'd probably also have to change the research model so that research doesn't become completely pointless. Then again, since research is already so cheap, this would actually slow down the tech pace to something reasonable.

-OR-

1) Replace the spaceship with a wonder called "tanks". The first person to bild the tanks wonder automatically wins the game, to simulate the fact that tanks can beat anything that comes before them and the person who owns them can conquer the world.

2) Mod in a noob mode where player-controlled units always beat computer-controlled units. That should placate the visiting FPS-gamers who really just want a feeling of godlike hypermasculine invincibility rather than an actual challenge.

 

[Nilrim]

I would like to see units that fall 3 generations behind your Civ's current Tech be forced to either upgrade or retire. If they retire maybe some coin can be returned to your civ.
For those talking realism in a 'game,' not that this game has very much realism to begin with, but can you point out to me any nation in history that has ever had active duty units that were 3 generations behind in Tech. from other units in the same nation? Normally you will see at most one generation and those are just the units that have not been refitted yet. The game should NOT allow units to hang around, it should force you to retire them or upgrade them, I think it is just plain crazy that a nation would field tank units while at the same time still field primitive warriors.

 

[gunnergoz]

The game is well balanced with the existing units. However, I could see a mod being developed which would drastially alter unit management. One possibility would be to have fewer units, but to compensate for this by upgrading automatically as eras change...of course, each nation's era's change at a different time, so it would be possible to see anachronistic unit matchups, just like we did historically.

 

[CVDon]

I was just suggesting a cosmetic change, not technical stuff like some of you are. The game works pretty good as it is, it just looks funny when you blast through enemy tanks, infantry, riflemen, axmen, archers, and warriors, all in the same turn. Sometimes in the same stack!!! It would just look better if the enemy had:

Tank
Infantry
Militia
Partizan-5
Partizan-3
Partizan-1

Sort of like defeating the enemy army, then the National Guard, and finally the civilian resistance.