Solution to javelineer rush

[Kidinnu]

I've used it before I knew the map. My first game with Iberia on the normal map, I didn't know about Tartessos, but they were close enough that it was easy to rush them.

Now, it's not always easy; I've tried to execute a javelin rush as Egypt, and unless I get hunting first (losing out on the early religions), either Nubia or Phoenecia or both typically gets a javelin built and fortified before I get my stack to their territory. But it's a lot easier for the civs that start with the technology.

I'm with hypnotoad on this, onedreamer: this is a failure in game design, not a failure in player willingness to limit themselves. A small flaw, one Thamis may decide not to do anything about, but a flaw.

 

[onedreamer]

Ok I've tested a bit.
On random maps, difficulty Monarch+, civs that have Hunting start with a Javelineer, civs that don't start with an Archer. All start with Archery and a huge production bonus for producing the second unit fast. With difficulty Prince they just get the production bonus and no tech (which means warrior instead of archer as first unit).
On scenario maps, difficulty Monarch+, civs don't get any bonus tech but a worker (in most cases useless). Since they are scenarios, I suggest to add to the AI one/two archers and Archery at start.

Or otherwise change the order of appearance of Warrior, Javelineer and Archer. One more thing, speaking of Hunting, I think it should be a requirement for Pastoralism.

 

[SrWilliam]

As long as the AI keeps them in garrison, adding 1 or 2 archers to a monarch+ start sounds like a simple and effective solution.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

How about:
1. Warriors +25% city defense
2. All Skirmishers +5 hammers
3. All Skirmishers 0 first strikes
4. Free Hunting and Javelineers on higher handicap levels, like with Archery/Archers in vanilla
5. Palace +25% defense

2 and 3 weaken Skirmishers for both the attacker and defender; more so for the defender because first strikes are better when you're the defender. But I think on balance it favors the AI for defense against Javelineer rushes, since the AI will build a limited number of defense units, whereas a human attacker will find it a little harder to build a big attack stack. I think it's worthwhile to weaken Skirmishers regardless.

He gets my vote.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Noticed that Archers still only get +25% city defense, should raise to 50%, but then give Javelineers back their 1 free strike.

 

[onedreamer]

nah I don't agree.
Javs shouldn't loose first strikes and AI should get Archery and Archers on higher handicap levels. Warriors +25% might be ok but not Palace +25%. With +25% city defense warriors already reach the same strength of Javs.

 

[solanacea]

I think palace defence bonus makes perfect sense. The elite troops are always stationed in there and it will make the javelineer rush more difficult.

 

[jefmart1]

Why not just give archers a bonus vs skirmishers? Theoretically the bow would have a longer range than a javilen or spear. Give them a 25% bonus vs skirmshers and that should enable them to win more battles.

Although, if you rush enough troops you can overwhelm anyone. I typically send ten to twelve cavalry against several spearmen that have been fortified on a hil for a while. The first few have like 0.8% to win, but after a while they wear them down and win.

To me that seems realistic. Whomever spends more on building an army should be able to win by sheer numbers. If you outnumber them five to one you should win even if you aren't equal in strength one on one. Since Civ only allows 1x1 combat, I think that the "rush" is a fair tactic. If all of the troops fought at once, the smaller force could be overwhelmed; especially when there are no guns or vehicles involved.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I think the new version (1.97) is a fair amount better on this. You can't get Javalineers as a first tech. And archers now have a substantial bonus against skirmishers, making them almost worthwhile

I agree that outnumbering your opponent should be a viable strategy. The problem is taking out a civ with a single unit that you rush at your opponent quite early in the game.

 

[ambrox62]

In my opinion, is a bad thing taking out a civ quite early in the game. Yes, it's the aim of every warmonger ,but it isn't my goal. I like initial development for all civs.
What about introducing defensive units (palace guard? - power 4/5 - movement 0) in each AI capital, like in Civ3-Conquests ROC mod?

 

[loseth]

I prefer decreasing the javelineers' city attack, because this makes the best sense historically without messing up game-play. In ancient warfare, troops (as opposed to machines) could do two useful things against a city: 1) lob missiles over the walls or at defenders on the walls and 2) storm the walls and or breaches in the defences. For 1), archers are very good. For 2), you want heavily armed and armoured troops. Javelineers are second best at filling either of these roles. Maybe they could be given a slight boost on the battlefield (where they really shone historically) to compensate for their reduced role in city attack.