Some changes I believe are needed for the Tech Tree

[Robi D]

That is not an axis of difference of republics, but rather of governments in general. Tribal nations (Iroquois), Feudalist monarchies, the later Ottoman Empire, communes (in theory), the more federal perspective on the USA (also the CSA), etc. are all nations with relatively low levels of centralization. It's a separate thing from whether a nation is a republic.

You are correct, a nation doesn't have to be a republic, to have decentralised government, so i didn't mean to imply that. I was just focusing on republics at that point.

 

[megabrainz]

And replace it with...? You can't do away with it and not replace it with something else. Governmental structures are far too important for a game like this.

To be clear, I'm not proposing that we do away with civics. I like civics a lot based on what I have seen so far, and I think they are a step in the right direction. But what I would like is for civics that can be directly represented in the game to be used, while those where the game effect is either impossible to realise with current technology, or alternatively can only be realised via a set of bonuses that seem to bear no relation to the civic in question, should be abandoned.

So for example, slavery vs. emancipation (to simplify somewhat) seems a good civic to me. It's the difference between rushing by whipping and rushing by paying in Civ3.

Likewise, police state vs. freedom of speech[*] could be represented by having a high level of Military Police, resistance to infiltration and resistance to war weariness in the former and a lower level of these but a science bonus (greater education) and greater overall happiness in the latter.

Another civic I'd suggest that nobody else seems to have is a civic to define how your military is kept. Options would include national service, professional army, mercenaries... etc. Effects would relate to the cost of the army, level of war weariness, availability of the draft, and so on.

But Democracy vs. Monarchy style civics don't work for me. If it were technically feasible I'd say we wanted to model the individual citizen, as suggested above. It would get pretty complex, as you'd need to model such things as tax, welfare, security, justice... all the things that matter to your citizens. Failure to satisfy your citizens could lead to revolt. The definition of 'citizens' would vary so that in a Monarchy (->feudalism) the landowners would matter while in Democracy everybody would matter.

So I think that's my current view. The Government-civics are so counterintuitive that there's no point having them.

[*] I know, police state and freedom of speech aren't alternative civics in the way that slavery and emancipation are. I just can't figure out why! How exactly is police state an alternative to Hereditary Rule? In what way is freedom of speech mutually exclusive with Nationhood?

 

[megabrainz]

PS Aussie, I have been lurking on your alternative civics thread - I just haven't had time to do a proper critique.

 

[sir_schwick]

I think Aussie put it best. Civics decisions should each have direct effects that are somewhat independent of other civics decisions. THen your government is the hodge-podge of philosphies that went into those decisions. Maybe names shoudl be done away with completely and you style your government however you want. REal world naming is not approved bya commmitte so why should Civ naming?

 

[apatheist]

To be clear, I'm not proposing that we do away with civics. I like civics a lot based on what I have seen so far, and I think they are a step in the right direction. But what I would like is for civics that can be directly represented in the game to be used, while those where the game effect is either impossible to realise with current technology, or alternatively can only be realised via a set of bonuses that seem to bear no relation to the civic in question, should be abandoned.

I agree in principle, but it may be too ambitious for the current level of technology.

Likewise, police state vs. freedom of speech[*] could be represented by having a high level of Military Police, resistance to infiltration and resistance to war weariness in the former and a lower level of these but a science bonus (greater education) and greater overall happiness in the latter.

You may have just picked this example out of the air, but this sounds less like modelling the phenomenon and more of bonuses and penalties.

Another civic I'd suggest that nobody else seems to have is a civic to define how your military is kept. Options would include national service, professional army, mercenaries... etc. Effects would relate to the cost of the army, level of war weariness, availability of the draft, and so on.

I was thinking something similar. An all-volunteer force costs more money but is higher quality and less likely to surrender/refuse to fight/revolt or cause war weariness. Having a national service option to the military draft would provide a number of Worker units that are like slaves in that they are free but work at a lesser efficiency than Workers that cost. Compared to conscription, it would cause less unhappiness, but it would also result in few "free" troops.

It would get pretty complex, as you'd need to model such things as tax, welfare, security, justice... all the things that matter to your citizens. Failure to satisfy your citizens could lead to revolt. The definition of 'citizens' would vary so that in a Monarchy (->feudalism) the landowners would matter while in Democracy everybody would matter.

I think it's easier to pick and choose than you might think. We can (for now) just ignore the ones that we can't figure out. Welfare is something that is fraught with complication. Taxes might be complicated as well. Security is a little bit tricky, and would almost require modelling crime and terrorism. Justice could be folded into that same concept. If they perpetuate the security vs. civil liberties false dichotomy, though, my head might explode.

A place to start would be to define a set of axes. Instead of 5 relatively arbitrary, mutually exclusive choices in each category, think of it as being a slider for one particular axis with polar opposites on either end and a (relatively arbitrary) set of stops in between, where each stop represents a change in degree of one particular value. An initial list:

1) Degree of representation. From None (Autocracy) to Universal Suffrage
2) Rule of Law - From rule by whim (either monarch or mob) to Constitutional and statutory law with an independent judiciary.
3) Religious freedom - from mandatory state religion to completely secular state
4) Freedom of speech (expression)
5) Centralized vs. decentralized state
6) Militarism
7) Nationalism
8) Importance of heredity (wealth and power)
9) Slavery - from born into slavery to emancipation, with stops at serfdom and indentured servitude in between
10) Ethnic purity

 

[sir_schwick]

1) Degree of representation. From None (Autocracy) to Universal Suffrage
2) Rule of Law - From rule by whim (either monarch or mob) to Constitutional and statutory law with an independent judiciary.
3) Religious freedom - from mandatory state religion to completely secular state
4) Freedom of speech (expression)
5) Centralized vs. decentralized state
6) Militarism
7) Nationalism
8) Importance of heredity (wealth and power)
9) Slavery - from born into slavery to emancipation, with stops at serfdom and indentured servitude in between
10) Ethnic purity

I like the ideas, but i think some of these would be better as true-false toggles and others as direct dichtomys. Actually a mixture of a few different selectors would allow tons of versatility. Here are your axes and others modified:

1) Degree of Representation - This is very important, and could have effects on all the others. THe biggest I see is that with less representation, fewer people can control more people's feelings. Maybe that means that the number of people you have to please is fewer, but their individual effects are huge. Piss off the nobility in the middle ages and you might have huge problems, etc.

2) Rule of Law - That is a very important reflector of reality, although I'm not sure what the analog effects would be.

3 + 4) I know in real life these should never be combined, but here they could. Another option would be a slider that determined overall levels of freedom of expression, to which you could assign game relevant exceptions 'no freedom of religion' in an open state, etc.

5) Federalism - THis is very important, but Civ tends to view almost all issues as a civ wide rather than city by city matter. Once cities are modeled as truly independent organisms, this becomes extremely important.

6 + 7) Once again, I think this is better done by a combi of slider + some toggles. Also, I think the levels of conscription slider would be awesome.

8) Social Mobility is more of a social rather than government issue. Being able to mod your civs social bits would be fun, but not really that governmental.

9) Defienitely a toggle or a small slider.

10) Definitely social and I'm not sure how to model it.

 

[Mirc]

I just see this as taking a hugely 'Anglo-Saxon' view of History. After all, the Greeks had a working Democracy over 200 years BEFORE the Printing Press.

You mean 2000 years before, don't you?

 

[mitsho]

nitpicker.... Of course, he meant 2000.

Well, the tech-tree seems rather ok (I absolutely like the fact that they concentrated more on ancient age).
I just don't get why the wheel is a prerequisite for pottey, but well...

mitsho

 

[apatheist]

I like the ideas, but i think some of these would be better as true-false toggles and others as direct dichtomys.

Do you think so? I thought most of those had at least 3 possibilities, but I got lazy and didn't list them out.

1) Degree of Representation - This is very important, and could have effects on all the others. THe biggest I see is that with less representation, fewer people can control more people's feelings. Maybe that means that the number of people you have to please is fewer, but their individual effects are huge. Piss off the nobility in the middle ages and you might have huge problems, etc.

Exactly. However, there should also be some inherent unhappiness from the people feeling like they have no control over their lives.

2) Rule of Law - That is a very important reflector of reality, although I'm not sure what the analog effects would be.

Not sure how to implement that in the game, either. Maybe it's one of those control vs. happiness dichotomies. Could be left out or folded into another concept.

3 + 4) I know in real life these should never be combined, but here they could. Another option would be a slider that determined overall levels of freedom of expression, to which you could assign game relevant exceptions 'no freedom of religion' in an open state, etc.

A sticking point with that is that religion is modelled in the game. Civilization doesn't model culture and political climate in a way that would reflect the different degrees of free expression that are allowed.

5) Federalism - THis is very important, but Civ tends to view almost all issues as a civ wide rather than city by city matter. Once cities are modeled as truly independent organisms, this becomes extremely important.

Agreed.

6 + 7) Once again, I think this is better done by a combi of slider + some toggles. Also, I think the levels of conscription slider would be awesome.

I'm not quite comfortable with that. Militarism I view as being more specific. It has to do with the degree of reverence for the military and the degree of influence the military has in governance. Think Sparta, for example, or countries like Argentina, Burma/Myanmar, and Turkey, where military dictatorships exist/have existed in the recent past. Nationalism I view as something different, where the state is viewed as the supreme arbiter of what is good. Nationalism may translate to increased militarism, but it may also mean throwing your economic weight around internationally or doing more work for your nation ("Ask not what your country can do for you...").

8) Social Mobility is more of a social rather than government issue. Being able to mod your civs social bits would be fun, but not really that governmental.

Maybe the term I used was too narrow for the concept I mean. Social Mobility sounds better. Governmental influence has a lot to do with it, though, from things like inheritance laws, the legal recognition of an aristocratic class, and caste systems.

9) Defienitely a toggle or a small slider.

I figure there are at least a few levels:
1) Slave class, where children are born into slavery
2) Slave population of criminals, debtors, war captives, political prisoners, and the like. Similar to indentured servitude.
3) Serfdom
4) Caste system (I know I mentioned this up with Social Mobility).
5) Complete emancipation.

10) Definitely social and I'm not sure how to model it.

Think Serbia or Nazi Germany. Persecute and drive out those who aren't of the right ethnic groups.

11) isolationism vs. engagement with the world.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

actually merging 8+9 makes a lot of sense