Some random comments from a new player

[Victrix]

First, I just wanted to say - tremendous work on the mod It's really amazing in scope, and I was thrilled to see that not only do you already have one full mod release under your team's belt, but you have a full design plan in place for the rest of FFH2

I'm only just now digging into it, so perhaps I'll eventually discover something not to my taste But for now, I'm thoroughly enjoying playing the game. I've been out of Civ4 for awhile now - I played it into the dirt after release, then took a long break for mods to come out. Come back, and what do I find, but the most epic fantasy mod I've seen in quite some time

Anyhow, I did have one burning question this early on - how on earth are you and your team dealing with the AI? I realize it's 'just one more' aspect of the mod coding and creation, but I'm having a hard enough time wrapping my head around the new concepts in the game, how has the AI handled it? Do you have a dedicated AI coder? Are there more plans for the AI down the line?

And speaking of the new concepts - I've looked at the faq, the main mod thread, the civopedia, various threads here, the wiki, and the mod directory... and I cannot find an overall 'big picture' view of the game. Is there an obvious manual/introduction to FFH somewhere that I'm missing? I'm having a really tough time just wrapping my brain around the whole that is FFH2 - it's kind of fun to just dive in and be overwhelmed, but at some level, it'd be nice if I knew what was going on

 

[Kael]

First, I just wanted to say - tremendous work on the mod It's really amazing in scope, and I was thrilled to see that not only do you already have one full mod release under your team's belt, but you have a full design plan in place for the rest of FFH2

I'm only just now digging into it, so perhaps I'll eventually discover something not to my taste But for now, I'm thoroughly enjoying playing the game. I've been out of Civ4 for awhile now - I played it into the dirt after release, then took a long break for mods to come out. Come back, and what do I find, but the most epic fantasy mod I've seen in quite some time

Anyhow, I did have one burning question this early on - how on earth are you and your team dealing with the AI? I realize it's 'just one more' aspect of the mod coding and creation, but I'm having a hard enough time wrapping my head around the new concepts in the game, how has the AI handled it? Do you have a dedicated AI coder? Are there more plans for the AI down the line?

And speaking of the new concepts - I've looked at the faq, the main mod thread, the civopedia, various threads here, the wiki, and the mod directory... and I cannot find an overall 'big picture' view of the game. Is there an obvious manual/introduction to FFH somewhere that I'm missing? I'm having a really tough time just wrapping my brain around the whole that is FFH2 - it's kind of fun to just dive in and be overwhelmed, but at some level, it'd be nice if I knew what was going on

I would highly recommen Xuenay's civilization list (the stickied thread). I think it is the best bang for your buck in getting a quick understanding of what is out there in the FfH world.

There will definitly be lots of surprises after that, but thats part of the fun.

0.15 is mostly a polish patch, and I think it is a lot more "new player" friendly. I had a fellow OO'er, who had never played before, try it out and let me know what was the most confusing. I used that feedback as the base for what I wanted in 0.15.

I was able to get all but two of his requests in (popup inclusion of data on civic requirement on units, and popup inclusion of data on religion or civ requirements on techs).

And Chalid is our AI programmer, though he wears a lot of other hats too. His goal is that everyone will have to go down to settler difficulty to beat the AI.

We toss out a ton of cool ideas because the AI wouldn't understand them. Although we can always improve the AI's ability to use what we have the AI is pretty good with some stuff, decent with most of it, and there are some things it doesnt use (yet). The spell system was designed from the ground up with the AI in mind and the Ai does a good job of picking what spell it should use in what situation. What it doesn't do as well is plan ahead on how it should use these functions. So it will spring a tile of its own that would be improved by it, but it wont go out of its way to walk over to a tile to spring it.

 

[Sareln]

Hey Kael, I'm writing up a short spiel to try and give an overall feel of the flavor of FfH to place on the front-wiki page below all the links. I'll run it by you before it goes into place. (Given that I'm not all that familar with the cosmos its run in, this is for more factual checking than anything else.)

 

[Kael]

Hey Kael, I'm writing up a short spiel to try and give an overall feel of the flavor of FfH to place on the front-wiki page below all the links. I'll run it by you before it goes into place. (Given that I'm not all that familar with the cosmos its run in, this is for more factual checking than anything else.)

That sounds great. Click on the spoiler under the Wold History heading in this post to ready a high level overview of what has occured in the FfH world prior to the mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4061799&postcount=1

 

[Victrix]

I would highly recommen Xuenay's civilization list (the stickied thread). I think it is the best bang for your buck in getting a quick understanding of what is out there in the FfH world.

There will definitly be lots of surprises after that, but thats part of the fun.

0.15 is mostly a polish patch, and I think it is a lot more "new player" friendly. I had a fellow OO'er, who had never played before, try it out and let me know what was the most confusing. I used that feedback as the base for what I wanted in 0.15.

I was able to get all but two of his requests in (popup inclusion of data on civic requirement on units, and popup inclusion of data on religion or civ requirements on techs).

Ah, I should try to be more clear... how can I put this

Okay, after spending a day playing FFH2, and reading several hours worth of written material I still could not tell you what FFH2 is 'about'

If asked, I would say to a friend 'yeah, it's this cool fantasy mod for Civ4 that has lots of, uh, stuff!'

Basically, just some sort of condensed introduction type post that says 'Here's the world of FFH2, here's what came before, here is your role in this world, here are your goals' (come to think of it, there's another one - I have no idea what my goals are, or what the victory conditions are, if different!)

Beyond that, an informative (but brief!) summary of NEW mechanics (eg, I still have no idea how spells or mana work, other than that they exist), and a quick overview of key differences/new elements as compared to base Civ4.

A new player primer, I suppose. Perhaps it's not something that's much of a focus for the mod, since you're still early yet, and (as I understand?) fairly recently open to public playtesting period (which usually consists of 300 random posts of uselessness, 187 bug reports with no info to track down the bug, 98 impractical suggestions, 15 good ideas, and 5 that can be implemented in my experiences )

In any case, that's just my feeling and impressions, and I'm a veteran gamer and Civ player - FFH2 is pretty overwhelming! (and it's only going to grow more so, should all four stages of your design be implemented - which, come to think of it, is another thing I don't really know about, I've seen them mentioned, but I don't know what they're adding )

 

[BeefontheBone]

The post you just cross-posted above with has the link to the post with the history in it

 

[Victrix]

I know that, but I can't quote the creation story of 21 angels and four ages of Man to a friend who asks about the mod - as happened just the other night

Like I said, I've spent plenty of time reading, it just seems like most of the information is scattered about in various threads and posts, and there's a TON of raw data, but no single brief post that summarizes the mod, it's feel, theme, content, and differences from Civ4 - unless I'm blind.

The description in the main mod thread is thusly:

"Fall from Heaven II is a fantasy mod for Civilization 4. It requires the 1.61 patch to play and is being released here in an early Beta form to get public feedback. We know that this isn't a finished product and there is likely to be some balance and stability issues. If you would like to play a more polished product please check out Fall from Heaven 1."

That's it! I'm not trying to be overly critical, just trying to convey my own confusion (and that of my friends) when trying to dive into this mod. It's a deep sea.

 

[Sareln]

Here's a general "the story thus far" when you start the game:

Fall from Heaven II is a dark fantasy mod for Civilization IV. The Age of Ice has ended, what is left of the once great empires of man have formed into small tribes, ready to rebuild and retake that which was lost.

But the world is not empty. Hordes of barbarians await these new civilizations. Wild animals stalk hapless scouts and reckless emissaries. Giant spiders lie in patient wait in the jungles and the forests waiting for their prey to take that last, fatal, step.

There is great evil, but also selfless good. There are those who strive to remain neutral in the coming conflict as opposed ideologies break the world asunder once again. The first goal, is survival. The second goal is power, for good or ill.

Will you pursue power through strength of arms or arcane studies, through piety or blasphemy? Choose carefully. On each path you will allies, and bitter foes, and the deeper you delve into the secrets of combat, or sorcery, or the divine, the harder it will be to turn back.


And then a more specific list of new features:

Magic! - Spellcasting units can take promotions in the different spheres of magic, granting them access to new spells and abilities. A unit can cast a spell if it has the Channelling I,II,III promotion, indicating what level of spells they can cast. There are different kinds of casters as well, being divided among Divine, Sorcery, and Conjuring magics. Casters gain experience slowly automatically, so there is no need to risk them in combat as they pursue their studies in the mystical arts.

Experience - Veteran units are now more valuable. The base promotions have been essentially doubled, making the difference between experinced units and greenhorns especially noticeable. Also, new anti-racial promotions have been added, become the scourge of the elves, if it suits your fancy.

Upgrading - In order to upgrade the the strongest units a unit must first prove itself worthy. Do you want to be an Immortal? Unable to die, and thus able to fight for all eternity? Then you have to be at least a Lv. 6 Maceman.

Religions - Not all religions are created equal, and some of them effect the alignment of your civilizations. If you choose to follow the vile practices of the Ashen Veil, your civilization will descend into the depths of Evil. You will of course be rewarded with immense arcane power, knowledge and the aid of Demons. On the other hand, if you follow the Runes of Kilmorph, you will be able to obtain the aid of the reclusive dwarves and make more gold than you could ever possibly spend.

Heroes - In times of darkness and strife, heroes will rise to lead their civilizations to victory. Heroes are world units, that can only be built once. If they die, they cannot be rebuilt. Each civilization has at least one hero associated with it, as does each religion. Heroes gain experience each turn, meaning that in any given game, they will probably be your most powerful unit by far. They are capable of taking lightly defended cities by themselves, but they're only a short dogpile away from being dead, so protect them!

Technology - Specialization is the name of the game here, while you may be able to generalize into the first or second tier of techs, you're probably better off specializing in one of the various forms of combat or the arcane or the religious. Tech progression is noticable slower in FfH, giving you an opportunity to play with those new toys you just discovered. There are also religious specific techs, that cannot be researched unless you follow the appropriate state religion.

Victory - Victory can be achieved in several ways. There are the standard conquest options (Last one standing, and domination) and Cultural (Three cities of legendary culture). There is the tower of mastery, a magic victory requiring you to build the 4 lesser towers of each spell sphere, and then control all different types of mana and build the tower of mastery. Finally, there is a religious victory that happens when your founded state religion has sway over 80% of the population.

I think that sorta covers most of it, there's probably something I missed, but good luck, and have fun dude.

Edit 1: added victory conditions.
Edit 2: fixed the conjuring part... you might want to do that as well Kael. I'll get the one on the wiki.
Edit 3: post faster Kael! , okay fixing the magic section again...

 

[Victrix]

Ah, interesting stuff, thanks

So racial units are associated with religions, not, well, 'your' race? Or are there racial units for whatever faction you wind up with, and then religious units as well (and buildings?)

During our multi game the other night, a friend and I both got our Hero units, but we couldn't figure out what to do with them - I think he wandered his off and got it killed, I upgraded it to a Warrior and then noticed it had about 54 experience, whereapon it became an orc smashing tool I later received a great explorer or something, who was able to upgrade to a Scout or a Hunter - he also seemed to gain xp per turn. Is that a Hero/great unit ability along with Casters?

As far as Tech specialization goes - are there sort of three routes then? Physical, Magical, or Priest/Religious?

Are there any special victory conditions?

 

[Sareln]

Ah, interesting stuff, thanks

So racial units are associated with religions, not, well, 'your' race? Or are there racial units for whatever faction you wind up with, and then religious units as well (and buildings?)

During our multi game the other night, a friend and I both got our Hero units, but we couldn't figure out what to do with them - I think he wandered his off and got it killed, I upgraded it to a Warrior and then noticed it had about 54 experience, whereapon it became an orc smashing tool I later received a great explorer or something, who was able to upgrade to a Scout or a Hunter - he also seemed to gain xp per turn. Is that a Hero/great unit ability along with Casters?

As far as Tech specialization goes - are there sort of three routes then? Physical, Magical, or Priest/Religious?

Are there any special victory conditions?

Most of the civilizations in the game are humans, so they can only access dwarves through the runes of kilmorph or elves through the fellowship of leaves. However, there are some race-based civilizations as well, such as Khazad (Dwarves), Ljsolafar (sp. Elves), and the Clan (Orcs). Buildings follow the same sort of rules mostly. Most civs have some unique buildings, and religions offer them as well.

The XP per turn thing is a caster & hero thing. A particular CIV (Grigori I think) specialize in getting Adventurers who act like mini-heroes. It makes for a very different game. I think they're also agnostic, so they can't adopt a state religion.

I made the tech specialization very general... but the three paths are sorta there. What tends to happen is that the bulk of your forces tend to be a particular kind of unit (melee, ranged, magic, whatnot) and then you focus on those upgrades because they're the most useful to you. The techs tend to be expensive enough that you never get everything.

 

[Kael]

Are there any special victory conditions?

YEs, there are 14 different mana types. There are 4 "lesser" towers that require 3-4 of these mana types (for example the Tower of Necromancy requires Death, Chaos and Entropy mana). If you build all four fo these lesser towers and have access to all 14 mana types you can build the Tower of Mastery, which will win you the game.

 

[Sareln]

You can also convert 80% of the world to your state religion (you also need to be founder I think). The inquisitor unit, which purges non-state religions can be very useful in this regard.

 

[Kael]

Nice writeup Sarelin. I added it to the main thread.

 

[Jono]

Nice writeup Sarelin. I added it to the main thread.

How about the wiki?

 

[Sareln]

Nice writeup Sarelin. I added it to the main thread.

Thanks, Kael. I consider it high praise .

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Nitpick for Sarelin's great description-there is no conjuring III, as conjurers upgade from adepts.

edit: oh yeah. First pick the nit in your own spell description, and all that.

 

[Kael]

Nitpick for Sarelin's great description-there is no conjuring III, as conjurers upgade from adepts.

There actually no Sorcery I, II or III or Conjuring skill at all. The 3 abilites that decide what type of spellcaster you are are Sorcery, Divine and Summoning. They aren't ranked. What are ranked are Channelling I, II and III which determines the highest spell rank the unit can learn.

 

[dreiche2]

If I had to summarize what FfH is very shortly, flavourwise I would say it' dark fantasy... civilizations emerging at the end of an ice age created from a war between angels (right?)... etc. (this needs to be fleshed out, but it should be possible to give you an idea about the setting with some short sentences...)

I'd say the key difference from vanilla civ is that your gameplay experince can differ vastly depending on what civ and what religion you choose, because this determines/influences what units and buildings you can build, how you interact with the terrain, what your standing is with other civs, etc.

Next thing is the magic system, and much more to come...

 

[YohanLeafheart]

Taking the bridge to make a question about Mana, is there any diference on having more than 1 of the same mana type? And besides the free promotion with unit creation and the Tower of Mastery victory, is there any diference of having more than 1 of each?

 

[BeefontheBone]

Not in 0.14, but there will be big advantages to having more than one in 0.15. I'm not sure how that's going to affect the ToM victory though - it involves far too much warmongering to be a builder victory proper as it is IMO.