Some small changes

[Milae]

Just wanna say this mod is great so much thanks to the guys working on it.
Been playing it a lot recently so I have quite a lot of thoughts about potential changes but I'll just put some of the ones that I feel strongest about here.

1. Being able to build faith (like farming/wealth) in early game, perhaps even from the start could be very useful for when you really want a religion but have no possible ways to get faith apart from shrines. Also think it makes sense historically to be able to do that.

2. Bonuses from having city state allies/friends should stack so that you get both when you are allied. E.g. Chanceries should give +1 gold and +2 production per ally. This is particularly an issue for Germany.

3. Most Ai's are to aggressive with settlers. Pretty often they will settle early cities far away which don't give them any real benefit and actually cause them more problems trying to defend them and making enemies with other civs. They would be better off settling more strategically and closer to them so they can defend better. Not to mention it's super frustrating to play against higher difficulties as they come and settle right next to you before you are able to.

4. Orders are too strong. The best follower belief in almost any situation in which you have neighbours. The amount of faith you get if you are warring is insane, +15xp for new units and extra defense are both also very useful on their own. Perhaps split up the bonuses or make a land unit version and naval unit version could nerf them a bit.

Sorry for long post, let me know what you guys think

 

[CrazyG]

4. Orders are too strong. The best follower belief in almost any situation in which you have neighbours. The amount of faith you get if you are warring is insane, +15xp for new units and extra defense are both also very useful on their own. Perhaps split up the bonuses or make a land unit version and naval unit version could nerf them a bit.

I don't know if I agree. You can lose the game even with basically infinite faith available. Orders cost faith to build and can take a long time to do anything. If you don't get zealotry, what do you even spend the faith on?

 

[BiteInTheMark]

I don't know if I agree. You can lose the game even with basically infinite faith available. Orders cost faith to build and can take a long time to do anything. If you don't get zealotry, what do you even spend the faith on?

Warmonger Arabia with the All GP purchase reformation?
India or Byzanz with Prophecy enhancer and Holy Land reformation?
For the science/culture buildings from their respective reformation?

Zealotry is indeed the best choice, but it can work with other things too. A 20 city Order empire which heads for a SV could milk CS. And if others declare war on you, even better, more units to kill and faith for writers and scientists.

 

[CrazyG]

Warmonger Arabia with the All GP purchase reformation?
India or Byzanz with Prophecy enhancer and Holy Land reformation?
For the science/culture buildings from their respective reformation?

Zealotry is indeed the best choice, but it can work with other things too. A 20 city Order empire which heads for a SV could milk CS. And if others declare war on you, even better, more units to kill and faith for writers and scientists.

Do you think its OP? Orders are extremely slow to get going and if you aren't at war they suck.

Arabia has a million better things to do. You can still only buy a GP every 5 turns and still not until industrial era, you can get pretty close to maxing out your GP faith purchased without orders. An extra copy of all great people 200 turns from not would not be a good follower belief.
With Byz I guess it could be OP, but it is very slow to get going. She has several strategies that are very strong but very slow. A lot of times I'm in the Renaissance before my orders pay off.
Diligence or thrift can just build those buildings normally, and help you earlier, without conditions.

Don't get me wrong, orders can be great but they are niche in my opinion. They provide faith in the mid to late game, when faith is just not an important yield.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Do you think its OP? Orders are extremely slow to get going and if you aren't at war they suck.

Arabia has a million better things to do. You can still only buy a GP every 5 turns and still not until industrial era, you can get pretty close to maxing out your GP faith purchased without orders. An extra copy of all great people 200 turns from not would not be a good follower belief.
With Byz I guess it could be OP, but it is very slow to get going. She has several strategies that are very strong but very slow. A lot of times I'm in the Renaissance before my orders pay off.
Diligence or thrift can just build those buildings normally, and help you earlier, without conditions.

Don't get me wrong, orders can be great but they are niche in my opinion. They provide faith in the mid to late game, when faith is just not an important yield.

.
Just wanted to point to some other, decent options, but their best usage is with Zaelotry, no question.
And I dont think they are op, their getting better the bigger the map is, cause faith cost didnt scale with city numbers like tech or policies, but I have to say that I rarely take them. Mostly peaceful play, you know?
The most annoying part of faith buildings is, you cant get them on puppet cities. I wished you could faith buy those in puppets.

 

[Coffee Monopoly]

The most annoying part of faith buildings is, you cant get them on puppet cities. I wished you could faith buy those in puppets.

+1

 

[Milae]

I don't know if I agree. You can lose the game even with basically infinite faith available. Orders cost faith to build and can take a long time to do anything. If you don't get zealotry, what do you even spend the faith on?

Well they are basically an instant walls+barracks so I wouldn't say they take a long time to do anything.
As for using the faith, if you manage to get pilgrimage founder belief you can turn your faith into culture.
If not though you can use it to switch through the other beliefs to get all of the buildings including free culture/science buildings.
Also many other civ specific strategies which are super good.

 

[Earf]

As a player who tends to mostly warmonger, I find orders can be really powerful. I try to always pick it, but find that is almost never available. I see it go with one of the first religions that are founded. The bonus city defense you get from orders is great, and makes most cities very difficult to take down. The bonus xp is nice, not OP for the building. They give you the ability to farm faith, which translates into several other things (Prophets, units, etc.). I think they can be the most powerful tool in farming faith, although that is situational. The one game where I had the most faith was a game where I was warmongering with Sweden, and had orders in all my cities. I also play on large maps, which gives more room for units to farm.

They can be very powerful, maybe not OP, but they do give you a lot of bonuses. Maybe they should be tweaked a little.

 

[pineappledan]

Maybe the city defense could be lowered to +5?

 

[Stalker0]

I think orders is a fine and strong building. I also love churches, and think synagogues are wonderful. Faith buildings in general are just really nice, so I don’t think orders stands above any of them in a particular way

 

[pineappledan]

‘cept stupas, lol.

 

[Stalker0]

‘cept stupas, lol.

That’s not a building it’s a handicap for an AI

 

[lunker]

‘cept stupas, lol.

I really like stupas... Nice for patching up happiness for wide civs and really nice for Religious + Tourism strategies.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

That’s not a building it’s a handicap for an AI

I really got the feeling that there are too many sources of tourism in the game which are not coming from GW.
Getting 5 tourism per turn from a stupa per city sounds nice but getting 2k tourism from a finished trade route to one civ and 1k to all other every 3 turns in the late game looks very unbalanced to me for the normal per turn tourism gain.

 

[civplayer33]

I really got the feeling that there are too many sources of tourism in the game which are not coming from GW.
Getting 5 tourism per turn from a stupa per city sounds nice but getting 2k tourism from a finished trade route to one civ and 1k to all other every 3 turns in the late game looks very unbalanced to me for the normal per turn tourism gain.

Yup. Same goes for historical events (e.g. GP birth, WW built or winning a war)...I feel these and the GW Tourism yields should be rebalanced and also the Tourism that other civs get when completing a TR to some civ should be at most 20% of what the TR gives to the target civ. Currently Trade Routes are way too powerful and absolutely dominate the Tourism game.

 

[BiteInTheMark]

Yup. Same goes for historical events (e.g. GP birth, WW built or winning a war)...I feel these and the GW Tourism yields should be rebalanced and also the Tourism that other civs get when completing a TR to some civ should be at most 20% of what the TR gives to the target civ. Currently Trade Routes are way too powerful and absolutely dominate the Tourism game.

Yeah, look at those tourism buildings too. A Zoo and a Broadcast Tower in a 30 citizen city with 10 forests deliver 25 tourism. How much deliver a GW? 5? 10 in the late game?
The amount of tourism from trade routes is composed by far the most from culture generation. No need for real tourism from GW or wonders as long as you have enough culture generation and trade routes.