Some thoughts on crossbows vs. longbows

[ywhtptgtfo]

That paragraph was assuming that your opponent wasn't a 'tard. Anyone who sends elephants to attack a city defended by spearmen, or macemen to attack a city guarded by crossbows, is a 'tard.

....

Elephants with strength promotions > spears
Macemen with city raider > crossbows

And of course, it's assuming that enemies at least bring catapults along to bombard.

 

[G-Max]

Spears also get strength promotions, and Crossbows get City Garrison. Your argument is invalid.

 

[CajNatalie]

You said "city on a hill". Longbows get +25 for the city and +25 for the hill, plus the 25 that the hill gives to every unit, for a total of 75.

You failz at maths.

Naw, I failz at not misreading.
But anyways, that 25% from the hill applies to any unit defending the city, so it should be ignored anyway for the sake of comparisons, which is what I was doing.


Now on to the argument at hand...
Elephants with Strength < Spears with Strength in City
Maces with Raider < Crossbows with Garrison in City

 

[G-Max]

Elephants with Strength < Spears with Strength in City
Maces with Raider < Crossbows with Garrison in City

I'm glad that we agree.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Spears also get strength promotions, and Crossbows get City Garrison. Your argument is invalid.

Assuming elephants and spears go towards the optimal path against each other.

Elephant with 1 promotion -> 8 + 0.8 (str) = 8.8
Elephant with 2 promotion -> 8 + 0.8 (str) + 2 (vs. melee) = 10.8
Elephant with 3 promotion -> 8 + 1.6 (str) + 2 (vs. melee) = 11.6

Spear with 1 promotion -> 4 + 4 (vs. mounted) + 0.4 (str) + 1 (fortified) = 9.4
Spear with 2 promotion -> 4 + 4 (vs. mounted) + 0.8 (str) + 1 (fortified) = 9.8
Spear with 3 promotion -> 4 + 4 (vs. mounted) + 0.8 (str) + 1 (fortified) + 1 (vs. mounted) = 10.8

And of course, let's look at crossbow vs. non-melee at various levels of city defense:
Crossbow with 1 promotion -> 6 + 1.2 (city garrison) + 1.5 (fortified) = 8.7
Crossbow with 2 promotion -> 6 + 2.7 (city garrison) + 1.5 (fortified) = 10.2
Crossbow with 3 promotion -> 6 + 4.5 (city garrison) + 1.5 (fortified) = 12.0

Since two levels of promotions are easy to obtain, it's almost guaranteed that an incoming elephant can beat a defending spear when cultural defenses are down. While crossbows can be somewhat tough to crack with 3 levels of city garrison, longbow generally does better against non-melee. And of course, that's only based on the assumption that the enemy does not suicide his siege units on your city (which is unrealistic in most cases). But then again, I think we can pretty much dismiss your idea of counter attacking.

 

[vicawoo]

Elephant/catapult can beat longbows as well as crossbows. Spears end up half health, too.

An extra +25% when you already have other bonuses helps, but it's not going to dramatically change the battle, unless the attacker is using mostly swords/axe/horse archers. If the enemy is sword heavy, I prefer axes, because they're cheaper and easier to obtain.

If both sides have catapults, siege is going to influence the battle much more than your longbow:crossbow ratio.

 

[Farm Boy]

The answer is clearly amphibious elephants on a beeline.

 

[G-Max]

Elephant with 2 promotion -> 8 + 0.8 (str) + 2 (vs. melee) = 10.8

Oh snap, I forgot about the Shock promotion. See, this is why I beeline Engineering.

Since two levels of promotions are easy to obtain, it's almost guaranteed that an incoming elephant can beat a defending spear when cultural defenses are down.

Yup, that spearman will probably die. However, the elephant will be so badly damaged afterward that it won't be participating in the siege for a good while afterward... and that's almost as good as killing it. Gives you a chance to counterattack

longbow generally does better against non-melee.

Well, DUH.

And of course, let's look at crossbow vs. non-melee

Why in God's name would you do THAT?

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

G-Max, no need to be rude. ywhtptgtfo probably suggested looking at crossbows vs. non-melee to see how well it would do.

And he said that longbows did better against non-melees because it's true, and not everyone knows that.

 

[Farm Boy]

G-Max, no need to be rude. ywhtptgtfo probably suggested looking at crossbows vs. non-melee to see how well it would do.

And he said that longbows did better against non-melees because it's true, and not everyone knows that.

Meh, it seems to be his thing. He is like a terribly ghetto version of Obsolete. Actually no, that is still unfair to Obsolete.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Meh, it seems to be his thing. He is like a terribly ghetto version of Obsolete. Actually no, that is still unfair to Obsolete.

 

[Deckhand]

Assuming elephants and spears go towards the optimal path against each other.

Elephant with 1 promotion -> 8 + 0.8 (str) = 8.8
Elephant with 2 promotion -> 8 + 0.8 (str) + 2 (vs. melee) = 10.8
Elephant with 3 promotion -> 8 + 1.6 (str) + 2 (vs. melee) = 11.6

Spear with 1 promotion -> 4 + 4 (vs. mounted) + 0.4 (str) + 1 (fortified) = 9.4
Spear with 2 promotion -> 4 + 4 (vs. mounted) + 0.8 (str) + 1 (fortified) = 9.8
Spear with 3 promotion -> 4 + 4 (vs. mounted) + 0.8 (str) + 1 (fortified) + 1 (vs. mounted) = 10.8

And of course, let's look at crossbow vs. non-melee at various levels of city defense:
Crossbow with 1 promotion -> 6 + 1.2 (city garrison) + 1.5 (fortified) = 8.7
Crossbow with 2 promotion -> 6 + 2.7 (city garrison) + 1.5 (fortified) = 10.2
Crossbow with 3 promotion -> 6 + 4.5 (city garrison) + 1.5 (fortified) = 12.0

....

This is a good post and the point is valid, but math not completely accurate.
The combat strength promotion is to base strength and therefore multiplied by other modifiers.
e.g. Spear with 2 promotion -> 4.8 + 4.8 (vs. mounted) + 1.2 (fortified) = 10.8

also, all adjustments (except combat) are made to defenders percentages

So WE vs Spear (both with 2 promotions):
Elephant with 2 promotion -> 8.8 (Combat 1)
Spear: 4.8 (combat 2) * 1+(100% mounted + 25% fortified - 25% WE shock) = 9.6

well, I only know what I read on CivFanatics; but it seems like the attacker should use some seige before attacking that spear with his 'phant.

 

[G-Max]

This is a good post and the point is valid, but math not completely accurate.
The combat strength promotion is to base strength and therefore multiplied by other modifiers.
e.g. Spear with 2 promotion -> 4.8 + 4.8 (vs. mounted) + 1.2 (fortified) = 10.8

also, all adjustments (except combat) are made to defenders percentages

So WE vs Spear (both with 2 promotions):
Elephant with 2 promotion -> 8.8 (Combat 1)
Spear: 4.8 (combat 2) * 1+(100% mounted + 25% fortified - 25% WE shock) = 9.6

well, I only know what I read on CivFanatics; but it seems like the attacker should use some seige before attacking that spear with his 'phant.

Screw the math. The SEALs are here.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

This is a good post and the point is valid, but math not completely accurate.
The combat strength promotion is to base strength and therefore multiplied by other modifiers.
e.g. Spear with 2 promotion -> 4.8 + 4.8 (vs. mounted) + 1.2 (fortified) = 10.8

also, all adjustments (except combat) are made to defenders percentages

So WE vs Spear (both with 2 promotions):
Elephant with 2 promotion -> 8.8 (Combat 1)
Spear: 4.8 (combat 2) * 1+(100% mounted + 25% fortified - 25% WE shock) = 9.6

well, I only know what I read on CivFanatics; but it seems like the attacker should use some seige before attacking that spear with his 'phant.

Yes, I forgot about that. It does make a difference in the calculation.

Anyhow, the strength advantage of the spear over elephants is not significant enough to have a high chance of victory. And in practice, a defending unit you leave behind often doesn't get beyond the first promotion (unless aggressive or protective) whereas A.I.'s units tend to have at least 2 promotions (barracks + theocracy + settled GG).

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

G-Max, no need to be rude. ywhtptgtfo probably suggested looking at crossbows vs. non-melee to see how well it would do.

And he said that longbows did better against non-melees because it's true, and not everyone knows that.

Well, my point's were:
- If the enemy spams elephants/siege, then his little spear + crossbow combo <<< longbows.
- His idea of counterattack fails

Meh, it seems to be his thing. He is like a terribly ghetto version of Obsolete. Actually no, that is still unfair to Obsolete.

If obsolete is here, he will obsolete this thread too.

 

[G-Max]

Well, my point's were:
- If the enemy spams elephants/siege, then his little spear + crossbow combo <<< longbows.

If the enemy spams elephants and siege, then the longbows won't do much good, either.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

If the enemy spams elephants and siege, then the longbows won't do much good, either.

It's hard to win against an overwhelming invasion force in any case, but having longbows will increase the number of siege required. When you invade someone's cities, do you prefer to see 2 spears + 2 crossbows or 4 longbows?

 

[G-Max]

It's hard to win against an overwhelming invasion force in any case, but having longbows will increase the number of siege required. When you invade someone's cities, do you prefer to see 2 spears + 2 crossbows or 4 longbows?

I'd rather see longbows, actually. They're much easier prey for my Macemen with City Raider I-III.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I'd rather see longbows, actually. They're much easier prey for my Macemen with City Raider I-III.

I don't know, I prefer to attack units in a city when they are < 5 strength unless I am doing a HA/Cav rush. It will be interesting to see how many of your macemen would survive against undamaged city garrison longbows.

 

[G-Max]

It will be interesting to see how many of your macemen would survive against undamaged city garrison longbows.

More than would survive against crossbows, that's for sure.