Some thoughts on modern war

[vormuir]

Had my first Monarch-level modern war yesterday. I was Augustus, had the largest empire and the tech lead, but needed a few more large cities for a Diplomatic win. Cyrus was my neighbor, about half my size and a few techs behind. In terms of war techs, we were about even, except that I had Composites and he didn't.

Well, I beat him, but it was tougher than it should have been. Some thoughts follow. Probably most of you know this stuff already, but it was very educational for me...

1) Be ready for an avalanche. At the higher levels of play, even a peacable AI will build up a ridiculously huge standing army in the modern era. Be ready for lots of ground, air and naval units. I had a couple of "what the hell" moments when Cyrus produced huge stacks seemingly out of nowhere.

2) Intelligence is key. Get a Spy running through enemy territory if you possibly can. It's much more important at these levels than in earlier war, because the mix of possible units, resources, and war-affecting buildings is getting more complicated.

3) Beware artillery. The AIs love to build lots of artillery and then use them to take out your stacks. By the modern era he'll have railroads everywhere, so he'll hit you with artillery from all over his empire at once. My first invasion stack got hit with about eight artillery attacks; most died, but they softened up the stack so that his Armor and Marines could kill the rest of my units easily. Ouch!

So, build some units with the anti-siege promotion or Drill 2+ and mix them into your stacks. Add some Machine Guns with Pinch or Ambush -- the MGs don't suffer collateral damage, but they'll have to fight the second wave, which will be Armor, Marines and maybe Gunships.

If you have command of the air, look for his artillery park -- the AI tends to pile them up in one or two cities. Bomb them. The AI is reluctant to use damaged units in combat (silly, since artillery are suicide units anyhow, but there it is) so repeated bombing can suppress enemy artillery while your stack creeps forward.

4) Consider the rope-a-dope. The AI won't keep you waiting long! Once you're at war, it will use railroads to quickly assemble a stack and invade. Since the AI is still a little bit stupid about stacks (I'd say 80% of the time they don't even include a Medic), it's not hard to rack up a very high kill ratio. Slaughter a bunch of his units, then counter-invade.

(I lost several units unnecessarily because I didn't clear a forested hill near one of my border cities. The AI parked its stack there... again, ouch. Live and learn.)

5) Rope-a-dope also applies to command of the air. For the first few turns, pile Fighters high in your border cities and set them on patrol. The AI uses both Bombers and Fighters to raid and attack, so after a few turns your enemy will have much of his air force on sick leave or dead. (N.B., Stealth Bombers and Jet Fighters are a huge advantage here.)

6) Watch for enemy Gunships. The AI loves to send these on plundering missions, attacking resources and -- dammit -- Towns. The best counter to them is Mechanized Infantry, so have a couple of promoted MIs on anti-gunship duty.

On the plus side, the AI tends to send its raiders alone and in dribs and drabs, so it's not too hard to kill them if you're prepared.

7) It's all about Oil. Resources are HUGELY important in modern war. I didn't realize it until this game. My war took a sharp turn for the better when I finally knocked out Cyrus' oil. His airforce (which was bigger than mine, though technologically inferior) dwindled away, and I found myself facing Cavalry instead of Armor or Gunships. Much better!

Before starting a war, review your enemy's resource situation. If he's missing a key resource, you may want to adjust your force mix accordingly. Otherwise, use Spies, raiding units and air attacks to take out his oil, aluminum and iron in the first couple of turns.

8) Watch your back. The AI loves to launch invasions against other parts of your empire. This is always true, but in the Classical era it's something like two Galleys carrying a couple of Axemen and a Chariot. Here it's more like a Battleship, three Destroyers, three Transports, Armor, Artillery, Mechanized Infantry...

The bad news is, if the AI manages to sneak one of these into your lightly-defended homeland, you are SOL. The good news is, if you're paying attention, you can kill a lot of AI hammers very quickly. Stay alert -- watch for those "the enemy has been spotted near [cityname]" messages -- and use railroads and Airports to gather a counterforce and take him out on the beach.

9) War weariness is horrible at this level. Build Mount Rushmore, have Jails in all your large cities, and seriously consider Police State if it's available.

Do NOT go into a large-scale modern war without a large Happiness buffer! If your major cities are already close to their happy caps when war begins, you'll be crippled by war weariness very quickly.

10) Airports are great. Build lots of them. Not only are they strategically important, they make the game less tedious.

Thoughts?


Waldo

 

[Verge]

All of that is good advice.

One more thing: If I find myself about to enter a modern war, I make a concerted effort to bribe another AI opponent into declaring war on my target opponent. The funds for the bribe are generally easy to come by, since your economy is usually well-developed.

If I succeed in obtaining a war ally, I usually let them duke it out for a few turns; I often find that the target AI will lose a lot of their units in their initial push. Plus, it redirects many of their stacks to a different front. Once I feel my target is solidly mired in battles, I'll declare war and enjoy the easier offensive.


Another thing: if you're fighting an overseas war, try to capture one of your target's cities immediately to establish a beachhead. In my experience, the AI will usually prioritize their attacks on your cities that are on their home continent, especially if it's one their own. More than once, I have been able to destroy 50% or more of an enemy army (modern or not) by taking a city as a beachhead, hunkering down with a large force of defensive units, and letting the enemy throw themselves against the ad hoc fortress.

You will need a large amount of defensive units to do this, of course, but each one will be able to take on multiple attackers. So it's a very effective localized solution against the "avalanche" effect you described.

 

[cheffster]

Very helpfull advice, I find micromanagement to be the hardest barrier in a modern war and would also add:

Rally points can be helpfull in reducing micromanagement, just shift-right-click on a tile while the city bar is highlighted. (but make sure to change it if need be)


In instances where the AI has a heavily defended city, having a spy to incite revolt for one turn will eliminate cultural defenses and hence giving your offensive units an easy time.


Beware of enemy AI 'Vassaling' other AI's, it tends to happen more often in higher levels, esp in BTS with the last few patches.
This can sometimes even happen while you're at war with CivA who you are about to destroy, then out of nowhere, CivB who's a military powerhouse declares war on you and it was the last thing you were expecting because CivB has always been peacefull, same religion and has a +39 relations rating.

This isn't because CivB dislikes you, but simply becuase CivB vassalized CivA while you were at war with CivA, so now whether you like it or not, you're also at war with CivB.
This happens WAY too often to me, I've ended up lossing several Deity games which otherwise I may have won because of this. Just beware of it, if you're going for Dom win, then make weaker civs castipulate before they end up surrendering to someone else out of the blue.

--

I often opt-out for a space win instead of dealing with the time-commitment of a modern war. Some games if you have a good enough tech lead + some developed military/hammer cities being able to crank out lv4/5 Modern armor, then it can be easy coupled with Mech inf.

One last thing:

1) Be ready for an avalanche.

I figured since I had a large tech lead +tanks on the way that I had the game in the bag, then this appeared out of nowhere.
The brackets (46), and (20), mean there is an additional 46 cavarly + 20 Rifles in that stack.
Even on Immortal difficulty, I didn't expect the AI to draw basically 100 units out of a hat.

So my last point:
Explore enemy territory and make sure to push F5 to see exactly what numbers you are against. Also hitting F9 to check on Power graph can also help as it measure # of military units in relation to yours.

 

[vormuir]

I had Peter pull this against me back in Vanilla. I invaded with about a dozen Armor plus another dozen or so Artillery and Infantry. He hit my stack with five or six Cannon and then something like thirty-two Cossacks. (Remember, back in Vanilla Cossacks were pretty tough.)

Pretty much mutual annihilation, but at the end he held the field -- I think he had something like one Cannon and four or five Cossacks left, while my invasion stack was completely wiped.

Waldo

 

[cabert]

If you let the AIs build up their unit numbers, there is only a handful of ways to deal with the huge stacks.
1) bribe them to war. This has an advantage and a drawback.
+ : troops will move away, and die somewhere else.
- : the AI will build units.
2) coastal nightmare. You attack from the sea without unloading. Kepping a city will be difficult for a while, but you're safe from retaliation (almost safe).
This can be done in 2 fashions :
Razor's edge = razing all you can. No need to defend, you just raze the enemy's cities. You get an edge because your enemy will capitulate if you do enough damage. You really need to consider the capitulation as the ultimate goal, since you just can't defend what you take.
CR nightmare = you use highly promoted (CR if possible) units to kill all enemy units (use a gunship for the last one) into a coastal city. You don't actually take the city. You let all the artillery and offensive units die as defenders, where they certainly don't shine (better yet, marines get a bonus vs artillery ). When you see reinforcements are getting thin, you can keep the cities with just a handful (2 are often enough) of defenders. This tactic works a lot better if you have a super medic in the stack and good air support. Fighters can strike from carriers.
3) Let them come. Your units are very mobile in your territory, while their units aren't. Be ready to face large scale pillaging, though. You need to bring them into a trap. What is a trap? it's a spot where they don't get massive defensive bonus, where you can bomb from several cities (4 bombers per city only in BtS, 8 with an airport), where your troops can strike fast (=railroaded) and retreat to heal.
4) nuclear hell : do I really need to explain?

 

[DrJambo]

lol @ Montezuma's stack of doom!! Mental. What happened Cheffster? Was that curtains as they say, or did you manage to pull through that invasion?

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, the AI will build huge stacks mid-to-late game. The sheer number of units needed was something I had to get my head around. Now, in modern warfare I'll usually start with around 60 units with another 60 in reinforcements right around the corner. Usually I'll go with stacks of 30. Definitely letting the AI come at you momentarily so you can wipe out their offensive stack and then counterattack is a good move. The last thing you want is them dropping a large stack behind you pillaging and sacking cities while you are pushing on doing the same.

 

[cheffster]

lol @ Montezuma's stack of doom!! Mental. What happened Cheffster? Was that curtains as they say, or did you manage to pull through that invasion?

I did loose Elephantine, that massive stack chewed through my 8 Infantry, 4 machine guns, and 8 tanks like nothing. This is my current game, and I haven't played further then that. I do have tanks/bombers on the way to weaken that many troops, but note I'm also at war with 3 Civs(Monte's vassals), I might loose another city untill I can build enough tanks/CG Infantry to hold the rest off.

 

[Solomwi]

Good advice, vormuir. A couple of things I'd add:

1) Especially in the modern age, each unit has its role. Tanks aren't great at city defense, and Marines may not be the best choice for cracking heavily-fortified city garrisons. Not all roles will be necessary (or even desirable) in every war, but the key is recognizing which ones you need to emply and making sure you use the proper unit for the role. Of course, war is a messy business, so you also need to be able to recognize when to use units in suboptimal roles, as well.

2) Force protection is very important. Back when you were invading with axes or maces, it made sense to ship your force over and unload on a hill or forest, exposing them to what units the enemy had in a one-turn radius. Now the enemy has railroads, air units and massive amounts of manpower lying about. Dropping your stack off even on a forested hill is likely to be suicidal. Cabert alluded to my favorite way to do this: amphibious attacks that don't capture the city. In an overseas war, you can often buy a lot of time to produce units by shipping a flotilla of Marines and protective ships to his shores, then using one city as a kill box. He'll keep funnelling units into that city that you can keep killing as they arrive. With 2-3 transports full, a supermedic and some march promotions, you can keep hitting him every turn. When his "surplus" units dry up, then you can just sail the coast, bypassing any situations too tough to give you good odds and just reducing his coastal defenses everywhere. The most common method of force protection is, of coruse, simply letting the AI stack come to you. You keep your guys safely behind your cultural borders and take advantage of your superior mobility. Airpower, as has also been mentioned, is useful for force protection, too, particularly when your guys are pushing into enemy territory. It can be used to keep the AI units' heads down as you get close enough to attack. Paratroopers are good for setting up diversionary fronts, as well.

3) Speaking of mobility, Commando rocks, especially with March. It comes after Combat IV, so it's not a promotion every unit can aspire to, but a cadre of Commando mech infantries can wreak havoc on the enemy all by themselves. Similarly, Commando paratroopers or marines can be a force to be reckoned with. This promotion gets insanely better when your enemy has a good railroad network up. A group of units with Commando, March and Combat V (heals extra 10% in enemy lands) can cause an amazing amount of damage behind enemy lines, even without taking a supermedic along. Of course, any Commando footsloggers can be accompanied by an explorer supermedic with Mobility (3 moves, ignores terrain cost) without any speed penalty.

4) Intelligence is crucial, and to that end recon missions are very useful. One of my main goals at the beginning of each turn of war is to light up as much enemy territory as possible. Cognizant of the air unit limit, which means each recon plane is one less that could be bombing something, I prefer to use carrier jets for this or, where possible, saturate the area with forts to hold extra planes. Stealth bomers, with their superior range, can also be based in the second and sometimes third tier of cities back from the border. Cities even farther back can host groups of jets ready to rebase as the front moves, in something of a leapfrog fashion. This lets them still hit the crucial targets, but frees up the frontline cities to host recon jets. Espionage line of sight leaves gaps that can hide a lot of units, but recon shows everything. NB: tiles can be blocked from view of recon planes by the terrain.

5) While intelligence is necessary, it is not a sufficient condition for victory. The war will still be won by the side that brings the most firepower to the field and is better at replacing losses, i.e., producing units and getting them to where they're needed. To that end the war may well be won or lost before the declaration.

 

[CivDude86]

A point to add on letting them come, you only get WW in fights were your aren't culturaly dominant. If they have SoZ then this is a must without Police State and Mt Jailmore. And a small point, letting them come forces them to pay extra unit maintence for those large stacks.

 

[johnny_rico]

On your point about intelligence is key. As opposed to having spies run through their land, I'd recommend high espionage points against someone you want to invade. That way, the passive effect of being able to see their cities will give huge clues as their military. I find the AI keeps the bulk of units in cities if they aren't at war.

Airships make great scouts. With one in each coastal city and using them to scout each turn, a backdoor invasion (sounds painful!) should never happen. By the modern era, you should also have a complete rail network. Thus, if it does happen, it usually isn't too tough to get your lost turf back. The hardest part is rebuilding all the infrastructure.

Use the military advisor religiously every turn. You can get pinpointed locations of each unit you can see (again, use airships and passive espionage to minimize fog of war).

As has already been pointed out, let the victim strike first. Wipe out his excessive invading stack and then go on the offensive. Imperative if you've built the Great Wall or are Imperialistic, but in general a sound plan.

Place spies on your critical resources. You don't want to lose coal, uranium, oil, or aluminum during the modern era. Also think about protecting iron if you're building the eiffel tower etc... This shouldn't be a problem; your empire should have extra spies on the modern era as the security bureau's you've built will replace the spy when it comes to espionage defense in your cities.

If you've got the espionage points to spare, you can send in spies to remove coastal defenses and then perform a backdoor attack yourself on the same turn. Someone, don't remember who and don't know where it is, wrote a great article about naval movement in the modern era and how to properly sneak in naval stacks using several drones to scout ahead while your attack force could sneak in unnoticed. If I can locate the article, I'll link in. I'd guess it might even be in the war academy. It should be, it was a thorough article and well written.

Don't forget to pack your nukes.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Mobility is key in modern era combat. Instead of relying on infantry, artillery, etc. which only move one space in enemy territory, use tanks/modern armor, mech artillery, and mech SAM which all move two spaces. Heavy use of bombers and jet fighters to reduce city defenses or damage defenders also speeds the pace of the attack. Medic 3 units are essential to keep the stack healthy and moving.

 

[lilnev]

If you're grabbing a beach-head city amphibiously, bring along some obsolete mounted units. Once the city is taken, you can move a transport in and unload, and those units will still have their movement. Step your expendable mounted units out and pillage the incoming railroads. This will cause him to park his retaliatory stack next to your city, and you get to do the "pound with artillery" routine instead of him. (Note that you need to pillage the tile improvement first, and if these are towns it may become prohibitive to send five pillagers).

And a question: Has anyone gotten good use out of cruise missiles, and if so, how?

peace,
lilnev

 

[shyuhe]

I've gotten use out of cruise missiles but they're expensive to use. They're very effective at taking out enemy coastal cities via amphibious assaults (after marines are obsoleted). Basically use air units to reduce the units to 50%, then send in the cruise missiles and watch their health go to 10-20%. Then send in your troops and you can raze coastal cities with minimal losses. But this requires a large number of cruise missiles (10-20 at least) which requires lots of missile cruisiers (and escorts). It's a very hammer intensive tactic.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Hmmm, I had no idea how to make rally points before, that'll come in handy.

In general, lots of good tips in this thread. Modern War is so different than early war. In some ways, I like it a lot more since there's more too it, but I myself can start suffering war weariness from having to manage so many troops. Yuck. That, and the later in the game the more WW starts to hurt.

 

[Solomwi]

I'm with shyuhe. Guided missiles are a nice luxury, if you can afford them, and add significant punch to your naval flotillas and invasion stacks (obviously by hitting the target city beforehand from behind the lines, not by moving with the stack), but are not a necessity by any stretch.

I tend to build them in cities that would take several turns to churn out a modern unit, but can knock out the missiles relatively quickly. At 60 hammers, building them in your major production cities is a waste, unless you can generate overflow toward the next build to shave off a turn (effectively giving you a missile + the next build in the same time it would have taken to just build whatever the next build is). Those 25-30 hammer cities, though, can build a rebaseable guided missile in 2-3 turns, making it available at the front, or in port for loading (remember that you can rebase and load the same turn, shaving what might be a critical turn off your deployment time), on turn 4 or 5, no matter how large your empire or how deep the producing city is. Alternatively, that same city might need 5-6 turns to build an infantry, which may, depending on map size and your empire, take 2-3 more turns to get to the front even with railroads. So those cities supply a fairly steady stream of missiles (since I play almost exclusively huge maps, there are a lot of these cities in my empire by the late game), while my big-time production cities pump out tanks, infantry, artillery and naval and air units. I can't recall ever being short of those units, but if I had to do so, it wouldn't be hard to turn those missile-producing cities over to defensive or attack troops to make up the difference.

 

[TheDS]

It's usually not hard to have 2-4 cities that haven't got a whole lot of production get tasked to building cruise missiles. Even so, they're expensive enough that I try to use them surgically, to hit things that I need hit NOW and don't have anything else that can do the job. Most often, this is some unit that I don't have the strength to beat, and don't have any aircraft available to hit them. Hit him with a missile, sometimes more, and that usually softens them up for a killing attack, which is much cheaper than a third missile.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

I still think Missles should cause collateral damage or something, even a small amount.

 

[Solomwi]

For 60 hammers, I think I'd find them a little overpowered with collateral damage, though maybe not, since that 60 hammers can only represent a single attack.

 

[Infantry#14]

why not send in a couple nukes if you are the aggressor. On the other hand, you should win with tech/tactical advantage a long time ago like at the latest before enemies built railroads!