Some thoughts on waging war

narmox said:
Not true, I waged wars in every era now, and it's possible to wage war in every era successfully. (Noble difficulty level)

I always play at Noble.

But the problem is that at Riflemen+ you quite often end up in a total stalemate if both civs are pretty much equal in production. By then, cities have usually built up a pretty high +defense%, and some units may have promotions - from barracks if nothing else.

So this resulted in one recent game where neither I nor the civ I was at war with being able to make enough units to hold/take the city AND do anything else. It was nothing but a war of attrition, and both of us were just burning up units - for 500+ years, on one city.

In the later game, with all the + factors, it can take 2-3x as many units to take a city as it does to hold one. This usually means massive amounts of units.
 
So this resulted in one recent game where neither I nor the civ I was at war with being able to make enough units to hold/take the city AND do anything else

So why try? Why worry about one particular city? Bypass it and wreak havoc in the opponent's core. Defend your land and let the opponent waste time/energy on war and try to get a tech advantage. Do something to break the stalemate -- drop units on the backdoor navally. Attacking a well-defended city is usually about the worst plan you can come up with.

Arathorn
 
Or better still, if you know you can't hold the city don't try - take it and burn the thing to the ground.

Another tip: Even if you plan on taking and holding the city - if you can't take it right away then pillage everything around it. Do not allow that city to keep producing at its maximum. Remember to burn the roads down too in order to break the trade routes and capital links. Burn everything in the 21 tiles around that city and even if you can't take it you've crippled the economy of the entire Civ - since that city is now just a big anchor on the enemy economy.
 
Arathorn said:
So why try? Why worry about one particular city? Bypass it and wreak havoc in the opponent's core. Defend your land and let the opponent waste time/energy on war and try to get a tech advantage. Do something to break the stalemate -- drop units on the backdoor navally. Attacking a well-defended city is usually about the worst plan you can come up with.

Arathorn


Exactly!!! CIV is about attrition war, use your stack to pillage his land, and leave the city alone, it's useless economy once you pillage all the crap around it, and you might force your opponent to come our from behind the walls, and give you the defending combat advantage. (Like in real life ancient wars, this was how it was done, too bad you can't circum a city as well--maybe you can I should try that)
 
Vizzini - I actually disagree there -

I wage two types of wars - Conquest and Sabotage...

For sabotage wars, I go in with a load (5-8) fast units- my sole strategy there is to set my opponent back as much as possible - Pillage EVERYTHING, cut off supply lines, keep his workers in their cities, and don't get caught doing it - war's of sabotage can work against much larger/more powerful empires if you play them right (and they're almost more fun, in the whole 'don't get caught' way)... a good sabotage war can also cripple an opponent for hundreds of turns- a good way to take the strongest nation on your continent down a few notches...

Its rarely worth waging a war of sabotage against a weaker opponent, unless you're afraid they're about to surpass you.

The other type of war I run is a 'war of conquest' - these are ENTIRELY different animals... speed is no where near as important, instead I focus on building up only THE most powerful attacking unit I have (fast or slow)... I rarely if ever Pillage during a war of conquest - everything I destroy is something I'll have to re-build- Conquest wars in particular are extremely expensive (a stack of 8 of my best attackers per city I plan to take is generally my 'rule of thumb' although it almost always ends up being over-kill, which is fine - leaves me plenty of spare units to A- grab a 'bonus' or B- defend my empire when the war is over). Because of this cost (and the 'total-war' mentality I was in pre-war to build up those stacks), I care only about turning around my spoils of war into productive land ASAP - therefore no pillaging- no anything - just march my armies up, grab the cities I want, establish my new front-line, and let the enemy sue for peace... a few turns of resistance- and suddenly I'm up 3-4 new, fully developed and productive cities - no 100 turns of improvement required...

If I'm going to invest the time, energy and effort to capture spoils of war, I want those spoils intact thank you;)

Conquest war's are almost always waged against much weaker opponents... no sense wasting effort conquesting someone who can fight back... just wage a couple war's of sabotage against them first, until they fall enough behind that they're easy pickings later.
 
EridanMan said:
The other type of war I run is a 'war of conquest' - these are ENTIRELY different animals... speed is no where near as important, instead I focus on building up only THE most powerful

OK but when you launch your offensive you do so obviously with enough strength to take that city immediately.

If you're in the situation where you can't - where you might not be able to take or hold the city for many turns and you're already at war, then you can't let it remain as a productive member of the enemy Civ. Even if I know I'm going to hold that city eventually if I can't take it "real soon now"... I'm going to burn its tiles down. I don't mind rebuilding them. By that stage of the game my workers usually need something new to do anyway :p
 
Vizzini said:
OK but when you launch your offensive you do so obviously with enough strength to take that city immediately.

If you're in the situation where you can't...

Right there is where you and I differ-

I will _never_ go to war if I don't have enough strength to meet all of my objectives right off the bat- and after I'm done, I will immediately let my opponent sue for peace... I am not afraid to build up for an extra 10 or 20 turns before a conflict, if it means to conflict itself is limited to 10 turns and I can turn that land around immediately productive (and hense catch back up).

If I'm declared war on (hasn't happened much, btw- mostly because I avoid state religions like the plague), I will wage a solely defensive war until I can get enough units together to start a sabotage conflict, I will _NOT_ even think of trying conquest at that point... screw up my opponents economy- make them sue for peace, _THEN_ build up my army and punish them later.
 
Originally posted by Narmox
Send in the siege units to whittle down the defenses, send some noob units if necessary to weaken the defenders, then your elite units will finish them off with minimal losses.

I don't get the reasoning here? Why protect elite units, so that they can become more uber elite if the only purpose is to show off their shiny medals? What use is the uber elite unit if you do not use it in a meaningful manner? A n00b unit can mop up just as well. I use my elite units to take out tougher opponents, so that my n00b units can mop up and gain easy promotions. Now, if you just really get a kick out of seeing level 5+ units, that's cool, and I can understand that, but they are not really helping you out in the game.

And as for the topic of collateral damage: I have read everywhere that collateral damage encourages you to separate your attacking army into smaller stacks. I disagree here. I find that it almost forces you to go with a SOD. By doing this, you can spread the damage over the entire SOD, and you may not lose any units. Whereas if you split your SOD into 3 smaller stacks, you may lose 1/3 of your army in one fell swoop.
 
Hergrom: lol ok that's a good point. Yeah I do get a kick of upgrading them.

Ok here I think is what I meant.. Use the newer units for general warfare and weakening the enemy and use the elite units where they count. That swordsman is City Raider 3, use him for a massive charge against the tough nut to crack city. That pikeman has archery and combat bonuses, wait till you face archers to throw him against an important target.

I Think that makes more sense, thanks for pointing it out :)
 
EridanMan said:
Right there is where you and I differ-

I will _never_ go to war if I don't have enough strength to meet all of my objectives right off the bat

There will be times you really do have to take the fight to them before you might otherwise want to. My most recent game in fact - I had to go after Rome almost immediately as their capital ended up about 11 tiles from my capital and you know that Rome's second city is gonna be plopped down on an Iron source - whether anyone can see that source yet or not :p

If Rome is ever that close there's no doubt you're going to fight eventually - might as well do it before they hook up the Iron so you have much better odds. Turns out I was right. City #2 that I took after Rome fell had an Iron source right next door. Thanks Caesar! :lol:
 
Hergrom said:
And as for the topic of collateral damage: I have read everywhere that collateral damage encourages you to separate your attacking army into smaller stacks. I disagree here. I find that it almost forces you to go with a SOD. By doing this, you can spread the damage over the entire SOD, and you may not lose any units. Whereas if you split your SOD into 3 smaller stacks, you may lose 1/3 of your army in one fell swoop.

It depends on the situation, here's a couple things to consider (not you specifically, just anyone in general).

Catapults cause collateral damage to 6 units, Cannons to 7, and Artillery to 8. This is in addition to any damage to the unit they attack (or possibly kill).

Yes, collateral damage will get spread out over a SOD. The first catapult will damage 6 units, the 2nd catapult will damage 6 healthy units, and so forth. I don't think this is a hard and fast rule, but it typically works out this way.

How many siege units does the defender have in the city? Let's say you have 16 units in your SOD. If they've got 2 catapults they could potentially cause damage to 14 of your units. Now separate that stack into 4 stacks of 4 units, this cuts the potential number of damaged units down to 8, make it 4 if they throw both cats at the same stack.

Let's say in the last example they throw both both cats at one stack and manage to kill them off. You're left with 12 fully healthy units vs having 2 healthy and 14 damaged in a SOD. The particular situation is going to dictate which situation is better. Alot of weaker units defending, strong but fewer defenders, the amount of collateral damage you're capable of dealing, etc etc.
 
snepp said:
It depends on the situation, here's a couple things to consider (not you specifically, just anyone in general).

Catapults cause collateral damage to 6 units, Cannons to 7, and Artillery to 8. This is in addition to any damage to the unit they attack (or possibly kill).

Yes, collateral damage will get spread out over a SOD. The first catapult will damage 6 units, the 2nd catapult will damage 6 healthy units, and so forth. I don't think this is a hard and fast rule, but it typically works out this way.

How many siege units does the defender have in the city? Let's say you have 16 units in your SOD. If they've got 2 catapults they could potentially cause damage to 14 of your units. Now separate that stack into 4 stacks of 4 units, this cuts the potential number of damaged units down to 8, make it 4 if they throw both cats at the same stack.

Let's say in the last example they throw both both cats at one stack and manage to kill them off. You're left with 12 fully healthy units vs having 2 healthy and 14 damaged in a SOD. The particular situation is going to dictate which situation is better. Alot of weaker units defending, strong but fewer defenders, the amount of collateral damage you're capable of dealing, etc etc.

You are correct, the situation must dictate what you do, and you need to adapt to survive. There are way too many factors to list and discuss. Relative tech levels, offensive or defensive minded units, terrain that your units are on, etc. I just personally have not come accross many situations where I felt, in my opinion, that it was advantageous for me to separate my SOD. I would rather stop and heal many or all my units, rather than lose a few units and have to replace them, while the rest of my units are completely healthy. Smaller stacks can be vulnerable to being eliminated. If the AI has the firepower to eliminate your SOD, then he certainly has the frepower to eliminate many smaller stacks.

One situation for sure where you WOULD want to separate into many small stacks would be something like this: You are attacking an isolated city with 2 archers, and 8 catapults. Your SOD is say 16 mixed swords and axes. If you go in with as an SOD, you will lose anywhere from 3 - 5 units from the cats, and may not be able to take the city. But if you separate into 8 stacks of 2 each, then you will take probably only take 2 - 4 losses total after taking the city. But this is an extreme example, and assumes the AI attacks with the cats, rather than defends.

I play large maps mostly on Prince, sometimes Noble to try something new. I have no idea if my theory holds true on higher difficulties or not.

How I use siege equipment:

As soon as cities are defended by lonbows or better, i always include 4-8 siege engines in my SOD. I first bombard to eliminate city defense. Depending on number and quality of defenders, and how many units were used for a complete reduction of city defenses, I may wait until next turn to attack. Whe I do attack, I typically use 1-4 siege units for collateral damage, then attack with melee / mounted types. At this point in time, siege units are cheap and easy to supply, and are generally expendable.

This changes with the advent of the tank. At this point, I only use siege units (artillery) for eliminating city defenses, and I typically have 6-8 in my SOD. I then use the tanks to attack for collateral damage. I usually only lose 1 tank, maybe 2 (many times none) before the damage snowballs into a mop-up deal. Here's why I do this: It's much easier to get a replacement tank to the front lines than it is an artillery unit, and they cost about the same to make. If you do not have enough artillery in a stack, your advance will be slowed dramatically, or you will take more significant losses.

In general, combat in Civ IV is a much slower affair. I have not even sniffed a military victory on the bottom side of 1800AD. Of course, I may not be any good at Civ IV... :lol:
 
Hergrom said:
You are correct, the situation must dictate what you do, and you need to adapt to survive. There are way too many factors to list and discuss.
Without a doubt. I've gotten burned using a SOD, and I've been burned by splitting them up, lessons learned.

I would rather stop and heal many or all my units, rather than lose a few units and have to replace them, while the rest of my units are completely healthy.
I tend to lean in this direction also, I'm not big on sacrificing units in order to take a city 1 or 2 turns earlier. Though as mentioned, the situation dictates action in the end.

This changes with the advent of the tank. At this point, I only use siege units (artillery) for eliminating city defenses, and I typically have 6-8 in my SOD.
I've been on a bomber kick the last few games. Once flight comes, if I'm spitting out tanks, I'm spitting out bombers. Any previous cats/cannons get upgraded, but I build no new artillery unless they're needed for a naval invasion. I tend to use bombers for both knocking down defenses and dealing collateral damage, but will always send a tank in my stack that has collateral upgrades.

In general, combat in Civ IV is a much slower affair. I have not even sniffed a military victory on the bottom side of 1800AD. Of course, I may not be any good at Civ IV... :lol:
Yes, much slower, as it should be (imo). No claims to being any good here either, but I can pretend I am. :lol:
 
Try going to war on Emperor level. :rolleyes:

So far I've beat Emperor level only 3 times. Culture and 2 Space.
 
Brota said:
Try going to war on Emperor level. :rolleyes:

So far I've beat Emperor level only 3 times. Culture and 2 Space.


Hehe, I've been avoiding it like the plague. I don't jump to a more difficult setting until I can dominate my current difficulty.

The jump from Noble to Prince was very noticeable, rather like the jump from Monarch to Emporer in Civ III. Does the difficulty ramp up similarly between the next few settings?

snepp said:
I've been on a bomber kick the last few games. Once flight comes, if I'm spitting out tanks, I'm spitting out bombers.

You know, I have not built a single bomber yet... many fighters, but no bombers. I really have not given much thought to them, probably prejudices based on Civ III, but maybe that is the way to go for faster conquest. Without the absolute need for artillery in a stack, you can move armor, with gunship support, 2 spaces per turn instead of 1 inside enemy territory. Gonna have to give that a test run, but sounds like it should work out pretty well.
 
Hergrom-

I found the jump between Prince and Monarch to be pretty steep - that is the point at which you opponents not only have a tech advantage, but they start with two archers, a worker and a settler- so those tech advantages are even more pronounced because they can wramp up their commerce/city growth even before you get you first worker.

So far, the only way I've been able to get an edge is to play as the roman's and mount an early war for conquest the second I got iron (I <3 Praetorians)... That game is ongoing, we'll see if I can now catch up my pathetically-lagging research- but I lead on my continent in Civ Score at least.

Edit: There is also a cool strategy I heard around here of using your starting warrior to steal an opponents starting worker... I will try that for my next game- but they do seem to leave them relatively unprotected - catch them at an opponents borders and it should be a pretty easy capture.
 
I have to say that when I moved from noble to prince I didn't really notice a difference. The jump from prince to monarch however was a whole different story. I just finished my first game of monarch and won a diplomatic victory by the skin of my teeth. The way the AI wages war doesn't seem to change as you go up in difficulty, well except for that one deity game I tried. Almost made it to AD...
 
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