Something about religion, offensive to none

[JerichoHill]

You know, I really like Krikk's idea of making religion so much more...very clever man!

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Part of being Christian is to accept Christ as the Son of God & etc, which is against the rules of Judism. Also, Christians reject plenty of Jewish rules, like circumcision and animal sacrifice. So they can hardly be considered Jewish now can they?

Well at the time Jesus died (and shortly therafter) the 'rules of Judaism' with regards to Christ were in a degree of flux. (Those rules were first put in place by the Jewish leaders to be 'politically correct' with the Romans, and because Jesus was criticizing a lot of thier teaching+practice, and gained in strength significantly once Christians began allowing Gentiles in, because then Christianity was no longer a sect of Judaism)

As for Christians dumping circumcision... well an uncircumcised Christian is definitely not a Jew, but a circumcised one might be... as for animal sacrifice, that hasn't been practiced by any major monotheistic religion in 1,936 years (Temple destroyed) so if you rely on animal sacrifice, could argue that no modern Jews are Jews either.

If one looks at the great body of Jewish law you get a few categories
1) Laws and statements both Christians and Jews claim to follow Commandments, the general goodness and greatness of God, Monotheism..admittedly the Christian version is more complicated

2) practices like circumcision, dietary, priestly roles that seperate the Gentile from the Jew... seen as necessary for Jewishness, but not prohibited (only considered burdens with no spiritual benefit) in Christianity

3) practices that Neither Christians nor Jews follow any more (animal sacrifice, killing those who worship other gods, the year of jubilee has pretty much died out in most of the Judeo Christian world)


Now for Modern definitions, the fact is the few Jewish Christians there are (not merely ethnically Jewish but in the sense of religiously Jewish ie still following dietary laws for religious purposes, etc.) means that for practical purposes, most of the time, Christians and Jews can be considered two seperate groups. However when talking about the Early Church, that is not really practical.

...............................................................

And back to the idea, the key thing ther I thought would be allowing a religion to actually fade... yes Chritianity may have been present in the middle East since the early AD, but its impact on Egypt in 200 AD and its impact in 2000 AD are two Very different things. (Not to mention the idea that a religion should be able to disappear.. from a city like early Chinese Christianity or Spanish Islam.)

I think that would help reduce the penalty the later religions get (not to mention I would probably rearrange it) as said in another thread to be basically in five groups..with the group happening at about the same time...but the first one earlier

1.Hinduism+Judaism
2.Buddhism+Confucianism (at around about the time missionaries become available)..1 missionary
3. Taoism..2 missionaries
4. Christianity...3 missionaries
5. Islam.. 2 Missionaries+Great Prophet

Because the 'Real Life' 'turns' that they appear on, in a Normal Game, are (using Births of founders)
Hinduism 62~1500 BC (collapse of Indus to the Aryans)
Judaism 70~1200 BC (using Moses)
Buddhism 93~563 BC
Confucianism 93~551 BC
Taoism 101~350 BC
Christianity 115~5 BC
Islam 138~570 AD

 

[boazman]

Back to the discussion of Religion in game, I think there are two basic issues that need to improve:

1. Late religion don't spread
2. Can't remove religion from a city

For the first part, it is a result of several reasons;

first, the early religions (i.e. Hinduism, Buddhism and Judaism) spread far too quickly.
Solution: Confine all religions within the cultural borders of the civilizations in which they are found, until a certain technology is discovered. To compensate for the lack of religion for the rest, it can be done by either making Paganism a 'proper' religion with its own temple (but not cathedral so to encourage switching to later religions); by creating a few more early religions (e.g. Zoroastrianism and Shinto), or both.

second, there are no incentives to switch to latter religions.
Solution: As we don't want to rank a particular religion better than the rest, I think the right way would be granting more free missionaries to them... Given early religions can't spread outside the founder's cultural border there should be plenty of civs to pick up late religions.

third, divine right and scientific method are too close. Make monastery obsolete later would be the way.

fourth, latter religions can't replace earlier ones, which brings us to the second issue.

I'm thinking of a simple mechanism to remove existing non-state religion from a city. A unit, which can only be built under theocracy, can all population in a city into the state religion, with the cost of creating unhappiness and reducation of population (a factor of existing population, may be 1/5). This unit should be relatively expensive, and can only operate within one's cultural border.

What do you guys think?

 

[SkippyT]

Yes, you are correct Targon. I strongly feel the Buddhist influence in Iceland, but I never feel pressured to be a Christian. I haven't discovered yet. I'm a bit og both, Buddhism and Christianity, and I really admire Judaism, very much. Of course I respect every religion but as you said. The world doesn't, the newest example is from Pakistan, where a man converted to Christianity and was held captured. That is really nasty and shows us just how the world is today

 

[Jason Fliegel]

boazman -- I think the best change to the role of religions to the game would be to make it so players never lose the ability to build monasteries. As it stands now, I've had games where I literaly shut down my science completely so I can spend some time filling in monasteries in high production cities where I just never got around to building them.

 

[boazman]

Yes. After all I see no reason why there can't be missionary in modern eras; although not highly visible we still have missionary activities across the globe these days. This change alone can help latter religions to gain a lot more influence than they currently do.

 

[5cats]

As for Christians dumping circumcision... well an uncircumcised Christian is definitely not a Jew, but a circumcised one might be... as for animal sacrifice, that hasn't been practiced by any major monotheistic religion in 1,936 years (Temple destroyed) so if you rely on animal sacrifice, could argue that no modern Jews are Jews either.

Um, to this day, Muslems on the hajj will participate in animal sacrifice.
It is also my understanding that eating only Kosher meat is, in effect if not in practice, participating in animal sacrifice.
Other than that, it is possible for a Jewish person to also be Christian, but not for a Christian person to be Jewish. Confusing? Yes, like most aspects of religion

 

[5cats]

Of course I respect every religion but as you said. The world doesn't, the newest example is from Pakistan, where a man converted to Christianity and was held captured. That is really nasty and shows us just how the world is today

Do you mean that fellow in Afghanistan? Who faced the death penelty for converting? YEs it is nasty, and far from the first time a convert from Islam, or the one who converted him, has been executed.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Um, to this day, Muslems on the hajj will participate in animal sacrifice.
It is also my understanding that eating only Kosher meat is, in effect if not in practice, participating in animal sacrifice.

Didn't know about that part of the hajj, thanks (what you learn). As for the eating of Kosher meat acting as an animal sacrifice...that means that there are lots of Christians (and people of all other religions) participating in animal sacrifice at a number of times (anytime their meals consists of only Kosher meat)

Other than that, it is possible for a Jewish person to also be Christian, but not for a Christian person to be Jewish. Confusing? Yes, like most aspects of religion

Well, yes, Jews who are Christian generally don't identify themselves first as Christian...partially to prevent the disassociation (the word "Christian" first arose in the Greek speaking regions anyways....technically you could say that Jesus wasn't Christian because the term wasn't used while he was on Earth. And I don't know if Peter, Paul, etc. ever used that specific term about themselves.) And I'm guessing that the current Orthodox rabbis would refuse to accept a Christian convert to Judaism who didn't renounce Christ.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yes. After all I see no reason why there can't be missionary in modern eras; although not highly visible we still have missionary activities across the globe these days. This change alone can help latter religions to gain a lot more influence than they currently do.

Actually perhaps the Broadcat Tower could allow the production of Missionaries (perhaps it could also 'paradrop' them to any city you had open borders with)

So there would be a period between Sci Method and Mass Media where a Religion can only spread out of its earlier established areas (European Missionaries), once Mass Media arrives it can begin spreading from its new areas again. (Korean Missionaries)

 

[5cats]

Also, Hollywood and Rock&Roll should count as religions Insted of trade, they should get missionaries... lol! You could para-drop them into any city that has a broadcast tower! You could use Rock & Roll missionaries over and over, just look at the Rolling Stones!!! Lmao!

Didn't know about that part of the hajj, thanks (what you learn).

Yw! It's largely symbolic, but animals are killed so... it counts in my books!

 

[Kerrang]

I'm thinking of a simple mechanism to remove existing non-state religion from a city. A unit, which can only be built under theocracy, can all population in a city into the state religion, with the cost of creating unhappiness and reducation of population (a factor of existing population, may be 1/5). This unit should be relatively expensive, and can only operate within one's cultural border.

What do you guys think?

One of the more popular mods for Civ4, Fall From Heaven, has an Inquisitor unit, which is used to remove any non-state religion and its associated buildings from the city. It also causes unhappiness for a few turns. Maybe they should surprise us by adding this unit, unannounced in the expansion pack. After all, "Nobody expects a Spanish Inquisition!"

 

[SmokeyD]

Well, yes, Jews who are Christian generally don't identify themselves first as Christian...partially to prevent the disassociation (the word "Christian" first arose in the Greek speaking regions anyways....technically you could say that Jesus wasn't Christian because the term wasn't used while he was on Earth. And I don't know if Peter, Paul, etc. ever used that specific term about themselves.)

Peter and Paul and co. spoke (well, wrote) in Greek, and make references to Christians, so they probably would identify with that group.

 

[5cats]

Peter and Paul and co. spoke (well, wrote) in Greek, and make references to Christians, so they probably would identify with that group.

That's true, Paul also discussed what name their religion should have too. Church of Christ, Church of God & etc were acceptable to him.

 

[PetriusTheWise]

Obviously, religions definetly influence one another, changing the ideals that are incorparated by the religion
Now this is recognized, the challenge is to incorporate realistic religion but not to take away from sheer gameplay

 

[PetriusTheWise]

ANd as for the matter of Shintoism (I believe that is what it was called), it is a section of Buddhism, not a completly independent religion,
While Christianity recieved influences from Roman culture and religion + Judaism, Shintoism is almost entirely based upon the ideals of Buddhism

Have not checked info, so please inform wether these statements are correct

 

[PetriusTheWise]

Additionally, Paganism, a religion ideal that is equally complex to Christianity or any other modern religion, if not more, was absolutely not incorporated into the game. Greco-Roman Polytheism influenced all of the western culture, Christianity, and is still a heavily literized mythology. References to this "paganism" are continously made from the dark ages to modern times. It is unfortunete that such an elaborite culture was ruthelessly destroyed by Christianity. While Greco-Roman Polytheists were very tolerant to other religions, Christianity was all persectuion. Just some information to consider

 

[zeeter]

Also, Christians reject plenty of Jewish rules, like circumcision and animal sacrifice. So they can hardly be considered Jewish now can they?

Theres nothing in Christianity that specifically rejects circumcision. If there was then almost every boy born in the USA after WWI is not a Christian. The difference is that Christians don't do circumcision ceremoniously. It is not a religious event as it is with Jews.

For trivia's sake, for the first time since before WWI more boys born in 2000 were NOT circumcised in the USA than were. I guess people are finally realizing that it does absolutely NOTHING for the health of the child. Plus theres the accident factor....

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Shinto, at one point, was very much it's own religion until Prince Shotoku brought Buddhism back from China. The Buddhists were of the Maharany(sp?) sect, the most wide-spread form of Buddhism(the other being Theraveda.) They were also fairly aggressive in spreading Buddhism for a while, and what they would do is incorporate pre-existing deities into Buddhism to make it more appealing to prospective converts. Buddism wasn't a big deal until the samurai adopted Zen Buddhism, which became suzerain over Shinto, which faded from the ruling classes. However, during the Meiji restoration, Shinto(and the emperor) were put back in the limelight so to speak(Shinto holds that the Japanese imperial family is descended from the Sun Goddess, if I remember correctly).
Leading up to WW2, the samurai ethic became a tool of the generals, and they used this to make Japanese soldiers fanatics who would go to such lengths as flying kamikaze planes(ironically, Kamikaze or "divine wind" originally refers to the typhoon that sank much of the invading Mongol fleet in...the 12th century?). Nowadays, most Japanese don't specifically observe one religion, and Buddhist and Shinto rites are practiced side-by-side, as Confucianism and Taoism co-existed in China, but neither is especially influential. So, what I'm saying is basically that Shinto wasn't even always important in Japan, and has certainly not spread much at all...

 

[PetriusTheWise]

If Indian Christianity (Indian beliefs incorporated into christiianity) isnt a religion, Shinto cant be either